Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Why the lib-dems are shit

No that's clearly not what I'm saying - under FPTP that wouldn't do any good whatsoever. But to allow a significant electoral challenge you need a system that allows other candidates to contest the election without the credible argument that they are only helping the Tories. If it turns out it's still a LD/Con contest, surely its better that they're fighting with each other than fighting for seats that are closely fought with non-coalition candidates?
 
Hang on, your anti no campaign is based on "the credible argument that they are only helping the Tories".

If you want to attack the coalition vote no.
 
A No vote will be a boost for the Tories, but will stiffen LD resolve to make the coalition work (and hence preserve their own necks from the dangers of an early election).
 
well what will happen to those lost LD votes in the SW? They will stay at home or go to losing candidates. Either way the Tories sweep the board and are on their way to a majority. If we don't get AV it's harder to kick out the coalition parties, and there is a huge argument against left candidates standing elsewhere as they will "split the Labour vote". This is why we need AV. And why left unions like PCS will be backing a YES vote.
 
You're talking about a GE. No one else is. I'm talking about this panto referendum. To even post as you do is to accept the premise that a no vote might bring the coalition down. Which you think you're arguing against.

Please don't throw the PCS in my face, go back to the you're a tory line. Much funnier.
 
A No vote will make the LDs cling harder than ever to the Tories, out of desperation to make the public think the coalition has "worked" and compensate for losing their "trophy" of electoral reform. It won't speed the demise of the coalition. If it was do disastrous for the coalition why would Con central office be organising so hard for a NO?
 
articul8 said:
well what will happen to those lost LD votes in the SW? They will stay at home or go to losing candidates. Either way the Tories sweep the board and are on their way to a majority. If we don't get AV it's harder to kick out the coalition parties, and there is a huge argument against left candidates standing elsewhere as they will "split the Labour vote". This is why we need AV. And why left unions like PCS will be backing a YES vote.
Click to expand...

AV will allow people to vote for the party they want, and then put the least worst party that can actually win it second. It makes very little difference, and can work out even less proportional than FPTP. It might help the Greens in some of their target seats, but it will not deliver a government which is not Tory, Labour or a coalition with the Lib Dems.

It makes fuck all difference what electoral system we have. We don't have any parties which can plausibly get into power which will do what the voters want them to do, or even what they told the voters they would do. They'll do what their paymasters want them to do, with a keen eye on post-parliamentary money-grubbing opportunities. There is no magic electoral system which will give us democracy. It's irrelevant.
 
What the hell do you a think a yes vote will do 8ate ? It'll embiggen and harden the lib-dems in their approach. Only a no vote can split them and fuck the coalition up. You do know this.
 
What I want to see is a YES vote combined with a really bad night for the LDs at local council level. A NO vote would accentuate grumbles at grassroots but harden the relationship with the Tories. But increase the likelihood of a Tory majority at the next GE. I don't think that slapping down the LDs only to get a purely Tory government is going to help much. I would welcome the fact that under AV the CWU (for example) could run anti-privatisation candidates without fear of "splitting the Labour vote". Who will celebrate a NO? Tories and the most conservative (small c) faction of Labourists. I don't see why you want to join them
 
Yeah, back to the you're a tory approach. As predicted. Defeat beckons.

A no vote will split the lib-dems right down the middle. A yes vote will unite them. That's it. It's that simple.
 
The LDs are split down the middle already - a NO vote will make the local councillors and activists cling to the leadership to claim that the coalition has "worked in the national interest". If the coalition breaks down shortly after a NO, they get hammered out of sight. And know it. So they are totally committed. A YES vote means Clegg needn't fear wipe out and gives him extra elbow room in the coalition. But that's not why it's worth having. It's worth having because it will help the voters knock both parties out of power and also allows left parties some room to stand.
 
No it won't, it'll do the exact opposite. It'll be manifest proof that they mean nothing. A yes vote will show that the policy is working. That's what will unite waverers.

All you're saying is support the coalition because the tories might win otherwise - whilst pretending this an anti-coalition position. It's a pro-coalition position - and most people have gone well beyond it. Stop being a pro-coalition drag.
 
frogwoman said:
But people will see a yes vote as an endorsement of the coalition though.
Click to expand...
How when Cameron has argued publically and vehemently against?

It's absurd to say a YES vote is pro-coalition. Whose side are you on? Cameron/ virtually every Tory MP/Taxpayers Alliance/xenophobe Lord Leach and Lord Prescott?
Or PCS/John McDonnell/Billy Hayes/Caroline lucas?

Is there really a case to answer?
 
you don't answer why the Tories and their allies would be so keen on a NO vote - and why leading lefts would argue for YES.

Let's have an answer...
 
You might be right, and nothing would delight Cameron et al more. But you don't actually answer *why* the battle lines are being drawn up in that way...surely it must make you reflect?

edit - I suppose it's consistent for someone who wants to smash parliamentary democracy to advocate the least democratic system possible - and thereby meet Tories who never much cared for giving the proles the vote. But given the fact that the majority of the population do invest some significance in election...
 
Surely if everyone votes yes, it's an endorsement of the lib dems and their policy and by extension an endorsement of tories? I don't really see any *significant* difference between the leadership of the lib dems and that of the tories.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Dog_Voodoo
Tory Mark Menzies, who are these bad people?
2
Replies
43
Views
2K
Wilf
Wilf
tim
  • Poll
The kulaks are revolting - does Urban back big farmer?
6 7 8 9 10
Replies
279
Views
9K
Elpenor
Elpenor
likesfish
Mark Duggans Son pleads guilty to gun crime
2
Replies
57
Views
2K
Spymaster
Spymaster
R
Oceangate's Titan. The Bayesian yacht. Why do the deaths of rich people matter more than poor people?
5 6 7 8 9
Replies
258
Views
9K
PTK
PTK
nogojones
Mark Drakeford standing down
Replies
28
Views
1K
weltweit
weltweit
Back
Top Bottom