Why the Green Party is shit

[Tom A]

tbh though, I doubt the wisdom of that attitude from the strike committee. Forcing the city to wallow in their own shit, and objecting to them voluntarily clearing up the worst of it is a pretty shit way of maintaining public support for your strike IMO.

Certainly a high risk strategy.

But so far, one that's paying off, judging by the support among the grassroots for the strikers. Also that fear that it will be counter productive is allayed somewhat by the fact the council have put something on the table which the union is taking a good look at, and they have suspended (though not called off) their strike as a result, which I guess means that all that rubbish will get at least partially cleaned up.

 

[Spandex]

tbh though, I doubt the wisdom of that attitude from the strike committee. Forcing the city to wallow in their own shit, and objecting to them voluntarily clearing up the worst of it is a pretty shit way of maintaining public support for your strike IMO.

Certainly a high risk strategy.

Yeah, this is where I'm coming from.

It's not as if there were any visible signs of scabbing in Brighton undermining the strike: every bin I saw all week was surrounded by piles of bin bags, many of them ripped open by seagulls, with litter scattered around. Like most people I recognise the only people to blame are senior council officials and the local Green leadership.

But, I left my flat to find used tampon applicators and broken glass outsde my door. Not wanting to push my six month old's puchchair over it, I cleaned it up. Somehow, there's this implication that I'm a scab for doing this. Fuck that.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Who's calling you a scab for clearing your own doorstep?

 

[Spandex]

GMB City Clean did say that they have no problem with residents/businesses bagging up rubbish outside their premises - but not to empty city bins.

Who's calling you a scab for clearing your own doorstep?

That's what Caroline Lucas claims she was doing; picking up used nappies and broken glass near where she lives. Yet she's accused of being a scab.

Just saying, I've got some sympathy for her.

Unlike that Kitkat div.

 

[free spirit]

GMB City Clean did say that they have no problem with residents/businesses bagging up rubbish outside their premises - but not to empty city bins.

hmm. depends a bit where they are tbh - I know groups such as friends of parks groups and similar who do regular voluntary litter picks of parks / dog walkers who do a bit of litter picking on their walks etc, and can easily see the justification for them to not want to let the strike result in the park / area they regularly litter pick ending up a proper shit heap because the bins are overflowing.

Town centre bins though would be a different matter.

This is the sort of issue that could very quickly turn natural allies into vocal opponents if handled wrong.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

That's what Caroline Lucas claims she was doing; picking up used nappies and broken glass near where she lives. Yet she's accused of being a scab.

She was certainly not clearing shite from her own doorstep! Given her position, & that of supporting the strike, her litter picking antics on Elm Grove were seen as undermining, & consequently went down badly with certain people. Me included.

 

[butchersapron]

That's what Caroline Lucas claims she was doing; picking up used nappies and broken glass near where she lives. Yet she's accused of being a scab.

Just saying, I've got some sympathy for her.

Unlike that Kitkat div.

She didn't say it was near where she lived in her statement. She, in fact, argued that she could and should be doing it anywhere she liked as she in the MP.

 

[sihhi]

tbh though, I doubt the wisdom of that attitude from the strike committee. Forcing the city to wallow in their own shit, and objecting to them voluntarily clearing up the worst of it is a pretty shit way of maintaining public support for your strike IMO.

Certainly a high risk strategy.

How else are people there able to press their demands then?
By welcoming middle-class strikebreakers doing the work instead, allowing the Council to last out longer?

 

[Mr.Bishie]

hmm. depends a bit where they are tbh - I know groups such as friends of parks groups and similar who do regular voluntary litter picks of parks / dog walkers who do a bit of litter picking on their walks etc, and can easily see the justification for them to not want to let the strike result in the park / area they regularly litter pick ending up a proper shit heap because the bins are overflowing.

City Park workers were working as normal, litter picking & emptying bins & dog waste bins in parks. City Clean don't cover parks.

 

[Spandex]

She didn't say it was near where she lived in her statement. She in fact argued that she could and should be doing it anywhere she liked as she in the MP.

You're right.

I guess just seeing the venom directed at some people cleaning up litter, I felt attacked cos I'd done the same. As I say, for me scab is a harsh insult.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

I guess just seeing the venom directed at some people cleaning up litter, I felt attacked cos I'd done the same. As I say, for me scab is a harsh insult.

The difference being, most of the people litter picking initially, were totally against the strike. Arseholes basically.

 

[free spirit]

City Park workers were working as normal, litter picking & emptying bins & dog waste bins in parks. City Clean don't cover parks.

fair enough.

fwiw, the organisation I briefly worked for was approached to carry out proper strike breaking litter picking & bin collection services for a council while I was there. Boss was considering it seriously, I said fuck that, others said fuck that, pointed at the negative publicity etc and boss went from excited mode to realising that it'd be a massively divisive, counterproductive one off piece of work that'd probably lead to us losing good staff, and went totally against the organisations supposed principles. Can't remember who / where the strike was now though.

That IMO would be proper scabbing and well out of order, I'm just not convinced that having a pop at people for voluntarily cleaning up their areas is such a great idea. I do get that this is probably complicated by the Green Party also running the council, so there would be lots of cross over between GP members and those doing the clean ups etc but also, surely many of those would also be likely to be putting pressure on the green councillors internally to sort it out, something they're less likely to do favorably while being called scabs.

GP members and environmentalists generally care about the environment, and particularly their local environment - it's their thing, and they'll participate in community clean ups when it's needed regardless of the cause of that clean up being needed. Trying to stop them doing this because it conflicts with a strike, isn't a strategy that's likely to do anything other than infuriate them and turn them against the strike, whatever the justification for it. I might not know much about the exact situation, but I know a hell of a lot about the green mindset.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Hence the GMB City Clean statement to locals & businesses that litter picking wasn't an issue - certainly on the beach (Sea Life Centre) where plastics impact massively on the marine ecosystem.

 

[sihhi]

I do get that this is probably complicated by the Green Party also running the council, so there would be lots of cross over between GP members and those doing the clean ups etc but also, surely many of those would also be likely to be putting pressure on the green councillors internally to sort it out, something they're less likely to do favorably while being called scabs.

My suspicion is that it's entirely a Green Party operation based around Green Party members, activists and sympathisers.

GP members and environmentalists generally care about the environment, and particularly their local environment - it's their thing, and they'll participate in community clean ups when it's needed regardless of the cause of that clean up being needed. Trying to stop them doing this because it conflicts with a strike, isn't a strategy that's likely to do anything other than infuriate them and turn them against the strike, whatever the justification for it. I might not know much about the exact situation, but I know a hell of a lot about the green mindset.

They should be stopped from doing it as far as possible.
Doing community strikebreaking weakens bin strikes massively, it means employers can just sit and wait and not have to deal with any legal difficulty of bringing in strikebreaker agencies, because an unpaid group is taking on the productive role of the strikers - and for no pay at all.

Once we concede this, where next, community dinner workers and teaching assistants who can't children not accessing school during strikes? Community drivers running a few routes to replace bus drivers on strike, to help out the elderly? etc

 

[Mr.Bishie]

My suspicion is that it's entirely a Green Party operation based around Green Party members, activists and sympathisers.

The initial litter picking had no political agenda whatsoever - they were conducted by money making scammers.

 

[Spandex]

The difference being, most of the people litter picking initially, were totally against the strike. Arseholes basically.

Hence the GMB City Clean statement to locals & businesses that litter picking wasn't an issue - certainly on the beach (Sea Life Centre) where plastics impact massively on the marine ecosystem.

See, I've no problem with the GMB or anything they've said or done, but some of the subtleties of their position gets lost when angry people start stomping around the internet shouting 'scab', and then those views get repeated and exagerated.

Anyway, you seem to be quite close to this strike, so good luck Keep us updated; this thread is a better source of info than the Argus

 

[sihhi]

The initial litter picking had no political agenda whatsoever - they were conducted by money making scammers.

There was a Haringey bin strike 2006 I think when the Labour Party did organise more for a publicity stunt psychological pressure some kind of pick up effort.

I think winning the strike ASAP is crucial for the Green Party - they have to prove their credibility in the first Green Council to wider business.

 

[free spirit]

Hence the GMB City Clean statement to locals & businesses that litter picking wasn't an issue - certainly on the beach (Sea Life Centre) where plastics impact massively on the marine ecosystem.

is there a different statement to this one linked to earlier in the thread?

That statement seems to fairly clearly say that litter picking is "actually the opposite of being supportive."

 

[Mr.Bishie]

See, I've no problem with the GMB or anything they've said or done, but some of the subtleties of their position gets lost when angry people start stomping around the internet shouting 'scab', and then those views get repeated and exagerated.

Anyway, you seem to be quite close to this strike, so good luck Keep us updated; this thread is a better source of info than the Argus

Totally agree. The scab word should be used carefully, & not bandied around to all & sundry.

According to the Anus, City Clean workers should get back to work, work harder, & for less money. The GMB in Brighton supported them on their picket a couple of years ago when they walked out. Fuck 'em now.

 

[DJ Squelch]

is there a different statement to this one linked to earlier in the thread?

That statement seems to fairly clearly say that litter picking is "actually the opposite of being supportive."

it was reported in the Argus

“Following several informal meetings between GMB and the Sea Life management team we have had full consent from the trade union to continue with what we are doing, as long as we don’t touch litter in the bins.

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/busi...___Brighton_and_Hove_businesses_urged/?ref=mr

 

[Mr.Bishie]

is there a different statement to this one linked to earlier in the thread?

That statement seems to fairly clearly say that litter picking is "actually the opposite of being supportive."

There was another GMB statement that went out to the Sea Life Centre - as they were the first to initiate litter picking on the seafront. It was agreed that the litter picking could continue & it was purely for ecological reasons & not undermining the strike.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Sorry to piss on your tirade, but the Greens didn't just propose budget cuts out of the blue. All councils have had cuts imposed on them by central government and all councils are having to cut hard. Just blaming the Greens lets Osbourne and Pickles and the other tory shitcunts in government off the hook. The Greens initally tried to avoid cuts by increasing council tax, which Labour and the tories joined forces to stop. Where they are shit is where they chose to target the cuts: at council workers. There's plenty wrong with the Greens, but try to keep criticism based in reality.


I've seen Caroline Lucas accused of scabbing a few times in the past week, which surprised me, as she's solidy supported the strike and is generally a reasonable MP. So I had a look at what happened rather than just believe any old crap on the internet. She says:

link

This was the day before the statement on community clean ups was posted, whoever posted it. Seems reasonable enough. I cleaned up some used tampon applicators from outside my flat last week. Hope that doesn't make me a scab.

For me scab is a harsh insult which shouldn't be thrown around lightly and it seems a bit unfair on her. If you want to criticise her, pick on something tangible, such as her support for homeopathy or something.

Where did this apologist come from? Get off my thread

 

[Tom A]

My suspicion is that it's entirely a Green Party operation based around Green Party members, activists and sympathisers.



They should be stopped from doing it as far as possible.
Doing community strikebreaking weakens bin strikes massively, it means employers can just sit and wait and not have to deal with any legal difficulty of bringing in strikebreaker agencies, because an unpaid group is taking on the productive role of the strikers - and for no pay at all.

Once we concede this, where next, community dinner workers and teaching assistants who can't children not accessing school during strikes? Community drivers running a few routes to replace bus drivers on strike, to help out the elderly? etc

Also David Carmeron and co would just love to see paid workers being replaced by "Big Society" volunteers.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Shameless bump.

Around the time that the Astaurian (sp?) miners thing was going on I had a Green (and actually one of the better ones around here) telling me that the left was being wreckless in supporting them because the coal 'NEEDS TO STAY IN THE GROUND' - they wouldn't listen when I pointed out that this wasn't really about environmental protection and that without a reduction in demand all it would mean would be that it would be extracted elsewhere using cheaper labour.

I managed to embarrass him because I asked, I think on the peak oil thread, for our environmental experts to help me out and free spirit told me to ask why, if it's about environmental protection and not just plain austerity and attacks on living conditions, they removed all subsidies for renewables at the same time.

But it does illustrate what their priorities are - even the better ones.

 

[Delroy Booth]

I briefly remember being at a meeting in manchester around free public transport maybe 2008 or 2009 and I saw a green "eco-socialist" explain to a disabled woman why that wouldn't support cheap or free public transport on the basis that buses and train still produce co2 and we should be encouraging people to use bicycles instead of any co2 based public transport. She was on crutches btw.

 

[stowpirate]

I don't know if anybody has noticed how many Green supporters live in large houses, drive around in expensive large cars, with a green party sign stuck at the bottom of their large front gardens? I should really start photographing these houses as it seems a tad hypocritical !

 

[Tom A]

I don't know if anybody has noticed how many Green supporters live in large houses, drive around in expensive large cars, with a green party sign stuck at the bottom of their large front gardens? I should really start photographing these houses as it seems a tad hipocritical !

Or, like George Galloway, have villas in warmer climes?

 

[Spandex]

Where did this apologist come from? Get off my thread

I'm the apologist? I'm not the one falling for the Lib/Con trick of trying to pass the blame for cuts onto local councils. Better to be thought a green apologist than being a tory apologist

Anyway, more in the spirit of the thread: I don't think anyone has mentioned the Brighton 20mph speed limit fiasco yet. The Green council, whilst looking for where to save money, decide to spend an estimated £1.5 million on signage for a blanket 20mph speed limit on all council controlled roads in central Brighton, including a dual carriage way and main through roads. This despite it being unenforcable, the police publically confiming it won't be enforced and everyone totally ignoring it. Nice one Greens

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Anyway, more in the spirit of the thread: I don't think anyone has mentioned the Brighton 20mph speed limit fiasco yet.

I did mention it in this thread - http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/green-partys-unapologetic-socialist-broadcast.309262/ - but should deffo be here! 1.5 fucking million!

 

[Spandex]

I did mention it in this thread - http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/green-partys-unapologetic-socialist-broadcast.309262/ - but should deffo be here! 1.5 fucking million!

Nice one. Hard to keep up with all the 'Green Party are shit' threads at the moment