Why do some feminists hate transgender people?

[SpackleFrog]

How do people feel about the various universities banning Greer from speaking? I've no time for her weird ideas but it seems bizarre to me that someone like her can be prevented from speaking when all kinds of religious speakers or mainstream politicians will be coming in and out freely to address various meetings.

 

[belboid]

How do people feel about the various universities banning Greer from speaking? I've no time for her weird ideas but it seems bizarre to me that someone like her can be prevented from speaking when all kinds of religious speakers or mainstream politicians will be coming in and out freely to address various meetings.

has anywhere actually banned her? There is a difference between calling for (a) specific meeting(s) to be cancelled, and a general ban. I think it's fair enough to ask for an invitation (especially from a supposedly progressive institution like a university, and when the subject is on the lines of What it is to be a Woman) to be withdrawn after her making grossly reactionary remarks. It wouldn't be okay to demand she be 'no platformed' tho.
I'm not at all sure I have seen anyone actually demanding the latter, tho.

 

[SpackleFrog]

has anywhere actually banned her? There is a difference between calling for (a) specific meeting(s) to be cancelled, and a general ban. I think it's fair enough to ask for an invitation (especially from a supposedly progressive institution like a university, and when the subject is on the lines of What it is to be a Woman) to be withdrawn after her making grossly reactionary remarks. It wouldn't be okay to demand she be 'no platformed' tho.
I'm not at all sure I have seen anyone actually demanding the latter, tho.

I've seen plenty of people demand she be no platformed (I've seen one person demand she be no platformed and describe Prevent as an attack on academic freedom in the same breadth) but not sure if she actually has been.

 

[Jimmy Turr]

has anywhere actually banned her? There is a difference between calling for (a) specific meeting(s) to be cancelled, and a general ban. I think it's fair enough to ask for an invitation (especially from a supposedly progressive institution like a university, and when the subject is on the lines of What it is to be a Woman) to be withdrawn after her making grossly reactionary remarks. It wouldn't be okay to demand she be 'no platformed' tho.
I'm not at all sure I have seen anyone actually demanding the latter, tho.

In what ways are universities 'progressive,' and why should they be?

 

[SpackleFrog]

They're not but it's a weird hangover of the British left that they believe them to be - probably something to do with spending the best years of their youth there.

 

[Jimmy Turr]

I'd prefer it if they were truly reactionary places still, and students could be relied upon to drive buses and shit in general strikes. You knew where the fuck you were in those days. Probably.

 

[Jimmy Turr]

Mind you, now the twats would probably be causing traffic chaos taking selfies while trying to drive a big vehicle while unqualified.

 

[elbows]

Very poor indeed.

 

[Jimmy Turr]

We could sneak up behind them while they're posting the selfies onto facebook, take the bus back and write on Twitter about how exciting it's all been.

We'd be trending all day long.

 

[elbows]

Anyway she decided she was going to speak at Cardiff after all, and this piece looks at that and some issues of free speech, along with talking about trans stuff very positively.

Don't gag Germaine Greer Germaine Greer should not be gagged for views on transgender

 

[Vintage Paw]

And this comment is very good:

You've created a false equivalence between two things: the right to free speech and the right to a platform for that speech. You have the former, it's a negative right like all natural rights. The later is not and you don't have it.

If I own a soapbox and megaphone for people to use while they express views to a crowd I am not 'censoring' anyone by not allowing them to use my soapbox or megaphone. If you believe I am, may I please have your address so I can come round and recite the complete poems of John Milton everyday? You wouldn't want to support censorship, right?

Cardiff University is not a publicly owned institution, it has no obligation, legal or moral, to provide a platform and it has no place using the lofty values of free speech to defend itself from judgement when offering a platform to a bigot.

Whether you should provide a platform to someone is one thing, and talk about censorship is quite another. Last time I looked, Greer had more opportunities to have her opinions heard than most of us -- being in the public eye as she is -- and she isn't under threat of being arrested or otherwise deprived of her liberty and freedom for saying the things she says. She can say whatever she wants, but she can also expect to face backlash if people don't like them, and she can also be expected to be 'disinvited' from places if they don't want to hear it. Whether she should be or not, as I said, is one matter, but dressing it up as an attack on freedom of speech is something else entirely, and is not helpful in any way.

 

[Vintage Paw]

And god, she's not being 'gagged'.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I agree with that, VP. However, there would still be an issue at a university about where the boundary lies between students inviting speakers and the university authorities vetoing them.

 

[cesare]

I agree with that, VP. However, there would still be an issue at a university about where the boundary lies between students inviting speakers and the university authorities vetoing them.

If the students are that keen on hearing her, they can organise it for themselves in a different venue.

 

[killer b]

And this comment is very good:

You've created a false equivalence between two things: the right to free speech and the right to a platform for that speech. You have the former, it's a negative right like all natural rights. The later is not and you don't have it.

If I own a soapbox and megaphone for people to use while they express views to a crowd I am not 'censoring' anyone by not allowing them to use my soapbox or megaphone. If you believe I am, may I please have your address so I can come round and recite the complete poems of John Milton everyday? You wouldn't want to support censorship, right?

Cardiff University is not a publicly owned institution, it has no obligation, legal or moral, to provide a platform and it has no place using the lofty values of free speech to defend itself from judgement when offering a platform to a bigot.

I'm not sure if drawing some kind of equivalence between the rights and duties of an educational institution and the rights and duties of a private individual really works - that kind of scaling is rightly criticised when comparisons are made between between household and national budgets.

 

[Athos]

I'm surprised there's been no comment on this thread about yesterday's story concerning the eight-year prison sentence given to a woman for posing as a man and having sex with someone who believed that she was a man.

 

[goldenecitrone]

I'm surprised there's been no comment on this thread about yesterday's story concerning the eight-year prison sentence given to a woman for posing as a man and having sex with someone who believed that she was a man.

And the police that had babies with activists are still walking around free. Disgusting.

 

[stethoscope]

I'm surprised there's been no comment on this thread about yesterday's story concerning the eight-year prison sentence given to a woman for posing as a man and having sex with someone who believed that she was a man.

Why? Unless you are trying to make some sort of comparison to trans people 'duping' others. Trans people already have to put up with the accusations of 'deception' when it comes to to tell/not to tell potential partners and there's the whole 'trans panic' thing.

 

[killer b]

I believe the defendant claimed the her victim knew she was a woman, and the sex was carried out while exploring their gender identity. Other than that (which sounds like fairly desperate bollocks when the rest of the evidence is considered) I don't think it has any relevance at all to this thread, other than to muddy the waters.

 

[Athos]

Why? Unless you are trying to make some sort of comparison to trans people 'duping' others. Trans people already have to put up with the accusations of 'deception' when it comes to to tell/not to tell potential partners and there's the whole 'trans panic' thing.

What bothers me is the possibility that, by treating deception regarding gender differently from that regarding other things e.g. income, marital status, the law becomes uncertain, potentially exposing trans people to prosecution (particularly where their transition hasn't been legally recognised). What is to stop some bloke saying that the consent he gave to having sex with a woman was vitiated by the fact that she was born with a male body. Where's the line drawn? What about a blowy from a pre-op transexual?

 

[stethoscope]

Heard this stuff a million times before. Fuck off.

 

[Athos]

And the police that had babies with activists are still walking around free. Disgusting.

Innit. Bizarre to single out one aspect in regard to which 'deception' should be criminalised, but not other, seemingly more significant, ones.

 

[Athos]

Heard this stuff a million times before. Fuck off.

Errr... you do realise that my objection to this law is that it might be used unfairly against trans people? Why the hostility?

 

[stethoscope]

Errr... you do realise that my objection to this law is that it might be used unfairly against trans people? Why the hostility?

Sorry Athos, perhaps an unfair and hostile reaction but I've been here a million times with these positions in various places over the years. All manner of devils advocate and comparisons and what ifs come out and they rarely help trans people.

I'll leave y'all to it because I think this stuff is to close to me.

 

[Athos]

Sorry ethos, perhaps an unfair reaction but I've been here a million times with these positions.

No problem.

 

[cesare]

Sorry Athos, perhaps an unfair and hostile reaction but I've been here a million times with these positions in various places over the years. All manner of devils advocate and comparisons and what ifs come out and they rarely help trans people.

I'll leave y'all to it because I think this stuff is to close to me.

Innit. Often it's concern trolling.

 

[Athos]

Innit. Often it's concern trolling.

Just to be clear, is that what you're suggesting I'm doing - concern trolling?

 

[cesare]

Just to be clear, is that what you're suggesting I'm doing - concern trolling?

On balance of probabilities, yes.

 

[Athos]

On balance of probabilities, yes.

Fair enough. You're wrong, though. I do think it's a genuine cause for concern.

For the record, where do you think this decision (and similar ones in recent years) leaves a pre-op transexual woman whose new gender hasn't been legally recognised, and who describes herself as as a woman to a man with whom she subsequently has sexual contact (e.g. a blowjob), if he later claims that he didn't consent to sex with someone who was, in the eyes of the law, a man?

 

[cesare]

Fair enough. You're wrong, though. I do think it's a genuine cause for concern.

For the record, where do you think this decision (and similar ones in recent years) leaves a pre-op transexual woman whose new gender hasn't been legally recognised, and who describes herself as as a woman to a man with whom she subsequently has sexual contact (e.g. a blowjob), if he later claims that he didn't consent to sex with someone who was, in the eyes of the law, a man?

For which "record"?