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Why do peoples not understand that immigration is currently based on 'pull'?

tbaldwin said:
Read post 235 VP....Think you might have missed it.
Click to expand...

You, think?

I doubt that very much. If you stopped to think you wouldn't embarrass yourself quite so often with the shite you spout.

What exactly do you disagree with in MC5's post. It's not exactly rocket science to work out that doctors and nurses are going to be useless unless they have the tools of their trade available to let them do their job. If they're having to function in that position and against the reality of hundreds of thousands of people (at a minimum) being affected by malnutrition, water-borne illnesses and other problems that are the result of the same poverty that keeps the hospital supply cupboards empty, then what real difference can a few extra pairs of hands make?

I await your detailed answer with bated breath.
 
VP maybe you should have read the WHO report on the subject or what Nelson mandela had to say....Or paid attention to what has been happening in South Africa recently...
Maybe you think that hospitals can operate without nurses and doctors...Maybe your as stupid as MC5..
 
more proof of the problem of 'pull' and poaching .. see particularly page 28

http://www.icn.ch/global/Issue5migration.pdf

and

"Since 2001, the NHS has promised not to engage in "aggressive recruitment" of African nurses, but this promise does not apply to private British hospitals, where African nurses often get their first jobs and later apply to the NHS. Since 1998, 12,115 African nurses have registered to work in Britain."

http://migration.ucdavis.edu/mn/more.php?id=3037_0_5_0

and again "One nation’s response to nurse migration: The view from South Africa .. by Bhungani ka Mzolo"

"The irony is, while affluent First-World countries can afford to build universities and train health workers, they use their highly valued currencies to buy these skills from poor countries such as South Africa. Large numbers of Third-World nurses, physicians and people in other health care specialties now practice their professions in Australia, Canada, the United States and the United Kingdom. These professionals, trained at great cost to their respective countries, now abandon their people for lucrative job offers overseas. When their governments question their patriotism, they argue that it is their right to sell their expertise to the highest bidder.

What’s to be done?
The obvious solution would be for developed countries to stop poaching professionals from other countries and train their own, but I doubt very much whether that would go down well. Some countries, such as the United Kingdom, argue that their population is aging, and they do not have the time to train young people. They need nurses and doctors right now. Yet there are many English nurses working in Saudi Arabia and other countries in the Middle East."

http://www.nursingsociety.org/RNL/1Q_2006/features/feature3.html

and "
The migration of skilled health professionals from Africa has adversely affected the quality of care offered in health institutions. Quality, effectiveness, and equity of care are closely linked to the impact of migration from the public sector."

http://www.afro.who.int/dsd/migration6countriesfinal.pdf

note that the WHO here argue ( p.63 ) that remittances are "they cannot fully compensate the losses" and they argue that movemnet of skilled health workers should be restricted ( p64)
 
Those reports demolish the flimsy arguements of some people on here dont they durruti?
I expect they will choose to ignore them though.
 
Why doesn't the South African government pay their health workers a decent wage then they wouldn't be going anywhere? Instead we see a black elite that has grown in the post apartheid era doing very nicely thankyou very much, cosying up to big corporations who pay these paltry sums.

How's that for stupidity?
 
MC5 said:
Why doesn't the South African government pay their health workers a decent wage then they wouldn't be going anywhere? Instead we see a black elite that has grown in the post apartheid era doing very nicely thankyou very much, cosying up to big corporations who pay these paltry sums.

How's that for stupidity?
Click to expand...

I would give you 9 out of 10 for that contribution.:rolleyes:
Do you not think you may have missed a couple of issues.:eek:
 
durruti02 said:
i noticed that no one ever came back at you on this .. i wonder why!!
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Tut tut, durutti, if you aren't lying or smearing, you're gloating. You continue to but this "mass migration" myth. Why?
 
durruti02 said:
well yes it has long been argued that the welfare state was created not just to deal with w/c discontent but to provide fit soldiers and workers .. but that is no reason to argue against it as it does as much for us as them ..

these debates though have been based in how rebuild resistance to capital .. and how immigration affects that and specifically here about whether immigration now is different to say 20 years ago
Click to expand...

When you talk of "resisting capital", you seem to choose your targets rather poorly. Even though you continue to deny it, you pin the blame on "immigration" and by extension, the immigrants themselves.

What you are doing here is masking your anti-immigration stance by using phrases like "resistance to capital". The last sentence is pretty typical of this tendency. Immigration doesn't change, why should it...yet here you say "whether immigration now is different to say 20 years ago". Wtf is that supposed to mean? Surely you mean "resistance to capitalism"?
 
tbaldwin said:
VP maybe you should have read the WHO report on the subject or what Nelson mandela had to say....Or paid attention to what has been happening in South Africa recently...
Click to expand...
I have.
I've also noticed how people such as yourself, with your faux[/I] concern for persons other than yourselves have selectively quoted.
Maybe you think that hospitals can operate without nurses and doctors...Maybe your as stupid as MC5..
Click to expand...
Maybe you're a rather ignorant person who hasn't got an argument, so who goes for ad hominems instead?
I don't think anything of the sort (as you know, though you're not hnest enough to admit it), I think that unless hospitals have medicines and equipment to deal with the problems they face, then having doctors and nurses standing around unable to do anything is an exercise in futility.
 
becky p said:
Those reports demolish the flimsy arguements of some people on here dont they durruti?
I expect they will choose to ignore them though.
Click to expand...

Do they, becky?

Why not explain to us how they do that?
Oh and don't worry about making a long post of it. I know that I, for one, will be fascinated to read the analysis you present to prove your claim.
 
MC5 said:
Says the Joyce Grenvell of urban. Watch it when you're out shopping won't you. :D

1/10 for comedy effect.
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Most uncalled for. :(









After all, Joyce Grenfell was a comic genius, becky is only mildly amusing.
 
Having an adequately funded health service and not cutting wages in South Africa would be one way forward to avoid a drain on skilled medical staff looking elsewhere for career opportunities.

On June 1 a huge mass action began in South Africa - “the mother of all strikes”, according to the National Education, Health and Allied Workers Union (Nehawu). Up to a million public sector workers walked out of hospitals, schools and other government institutions on an indefinite stayaway.

Nehawu is just one of 19 public service unions - including eight affiliated to the main union centre, the Congress of South African Trade Unions (Cosatu) -taking part in this coordinated action for “a living wage, better working conditions and for a fully staffed and adequately funded public service...
http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/676/south africa.htm
Click to expand...
 
MC5 said:
Why doesn't the South African government pay their health workers a decent wage then they wouldn't be going anywhere? Instead we see a black elite that has grown in the post apartheid era doing very nicely thankyou very much, cosying up to big corporations who pay these paltry sums.

How's that for stupidity?
Click to expand...


i agree absolutely .. but the SAFFA situation ( in fact all of africa as it goes and south east asia) is NOT going to be sorted on its own .. these are poor countries even if there are some companies making fortunes .. yes i suppoirt totally the SA workers but we as a w/c in THIS country should be standing up and opposing this too ( p.s. as does the RCN)

.. read the links i have given .. they support entirely what I (and TB before me) have argued that the west is pulling these workers here .. it is bad for this country and worse for theirs ..

MC read the qoutes .. they are all demanding that the west STOPS poaching ..

please please please take your " they'reallultraleftclosetbnpracistxenophobes" glasses off and try to think about maybe the left have got this one wrong ..
 
nino_savatte said:
1)When you talk of "resisting capital", you seem to choose your targets rather poorly. Even though you continue to deny it, you pin the blame on "immigration" and by extension, the immigrants themselves.

2)What you are doing here is masking your anti-immigration stance by using phrases like "resistance to capital". The last sentence is pretty typical of this tendency. Immigration doesn't change, why should it...yet here you say "whether immigration now is different to say 20 years ago". Wtf is that supposed to mean? Surely you mean "resistance to capitalism"?
Click to expand...

1) simply not so nino ( why do you continue to say this with no evidence?)

.. i pin the blame 100% on the neoliberal thatcherite new labour spivs .. my ONLY allegation differrent from most, is that they have USED immigration (against which i have NO problem) as part of their 'drive to the bottom'

2) masking? resistance to capital?? .. that's what i do in my day job!!:D ..

and you say that immigration doesn't change!!!?? what unscientific/unmarxist nonsense!!! of course it does .. just look at ireland!

immigration is entirely differrent in this country now than it was 40 years ago ( when most afrocaribs came over) .. then there was full employment, a social contract and agreement with the unions on this .. i do not believe then it was used to attack wages or union organisation ..

now we are under neo liberalism .. and immigration is entirely differrent.
 
durruti02 said:
1) simply not so nino ( why do you continue to say this with no evidence?)

.. i pin the blame 100% on the neoliberal thatcherite new labour spivs .. my ONLY allegation differrent from most, is that they have USED immigration (against which i have NO problem) as part of their 'drive to the bottom'

2) masking? resistance to capital?? .. that's what i do in my day job!!:D ..

and you say that immigration doesn't change!!!?? what unscientific/unmarxist nonsense!!! of course it does .. just look at ireland!

immigration is entirely differrent in this country now than it was 40 years ago ( when most afrocaribs came over) .. then there was full employment, a social contract and agreement with the unions on this .. i do not believe then it was used to attack wages or union organisation ..

now we are under neo liberalism .. and immigration is entirely differrent.
Click to expand...

People have been migrating for centuries. The reasons and causes for why people migrate haven't changed in all that time.

Here you use the phrase "neo-liberalism" as a sort of mantra but you tend to chuck it around when things get a wee bit sticky for you.
 
durruti02 said:
i agree absolutely .. but the SAFFA situation ( in fact all of africa as it goes and south east asia) is NOT going to be sorted on its own .. these are poor countries even if there are some companies making fortunes .. yes i suppoirt totally the SA workers but we as a w/c in THIS country should be standing up and opposing this too ( p.s. as does the RCN)

.. read the links i have given .. they support entirely what I (and TB before me) have argued that the west is pulling these workers here .. it is bad for this country and worse for theirs ..

MC read the qoutes .. they are all demanding that the west STOPS poaching ..

please please please take your " they'reallultraleftclosetbnpracistxenophobes" glasses off and try to think about maybe the left have got this one wrong ..
Click to expand...

What? Opposing further immigration controls? Nothing "wrong" in that. It's part and parcel of being a internationalist afterall, rather than a bigoted, xenophobic, racist, nationalist who wants to throw up borders and and then deport those already settled here (not refering to you of course).

As for claims of 'poaching'? That would be the argument from a black elite who cosy up to corporate interests and collude to keep wages low and conditions poor, who ride around in Mercs and live in exclusive areas; in mansions with black servants.
 
ViolentPanda said:
Do they, becky?

Why not explain to us how they do that?
Oh and don't worry about making a long post of it. I know that I, for one, will be fascinated to read the analysis you present to prove your claim.
Click to expand...

Whatever anyone says Panda you ignore anecdotal evidence,you ignore reports from the likes of Oxfam and the World Health Organisation.

But the one person you seem to take seriously is nono savatte.:D

Which speaks volumes.:p
 
MC5 said:
As for claims of 'poaching'? That would be the argument from a black elite who cosy up to corporate interests and collude to keep wages low and conditions poor, who ride around in Mercs and live in exclusive areas; in mansions with black servants.
Click to expand...

What an utterly pathetic thing to say.:rolleyes:
George Bush is pro immigration. Does that mean i should accuse you of invading Iraq.:rolleyes:
 
becky p said:
Whatever anyone says Panda you ignore anecdotal evidence,you ignore reports from the likes of Oxfam and the World Health Organisation.
Click to expand...
No I don't.
You assume (something you do an awful lot of) that I ignore them because I don't draw the same conclusions as you.

By the way, did you read the entire WHO report, or just the excerpt? it makes a difference, you know.
But the one person you seem to take seriously is nono savatte.:D

Which speaks volumes.:p
Click to expand...
More blah blah blah from a person too lazy to present a decent argument, but not too lazy to attempt to denigrate people.

Saddo.
 
Durruti02 would you ever just fuck off and die, your obsession with immigration would raise eyeborws at the Daily Mail ffs!
 
becky p said:
What an utterly pathetic thing to say.:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Why?
It's certainly true that trade union and other grassroots organisations have been complaining about the money-grubbing activities of the political elite, who've feathered their own nests to the detriment of their responsibilities to the electorate, especially in the health and housing sectors.
It's no good training those doctors and nurses if you don't give them the means to carry out their work, and far easier to blame them for the problems than to admit that your own greed contributed to those problems.
George Bush is pro immigration. Does that mean i should accuse you of invading Iraq.:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
What a thoroughly pisspoor analogy.
 
revol68 said:
Durruti02 would you ever just fuck off and die, your obsession with immigration would raise eyeborws at the Daily Mail ffs!
Click to expand...

Perhaps he's Paul Dacre, and is getting rid of the venom he doesn't even dare spew in the Mail? :)
 
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