Why do people from privileged class backgrounds often misidentify their origins as working class?

[butchersapron]

Bumping this thread because I think Foley’s review of Catherine Liu’s book ‘Virtue Hoarders’ need to be more widely read. This is both a good piece of writing and really penetrating on what the PMC is and what role it plays within the left (and what role the left plays for it

The New Dangerous Class? The PMC And Virtue Hoarding | Conter

In a review of a new book about the ‘Professional Managerial Class’ , James Foley says middle-class activists dress up conformity as a war on cultural backwardness.

www.conter.co.uk

Info on the book, which I haven’t read, is here:

Virtue Hoarders

A denunciation of the credentialed elite class that serves capitalism while insisting on its own progressive heroism Professional Managerial Class (PMC) elit...

www.upress.umn.edu

I've just read it. It's a blazing hilarious polemic (with a few utterly minor problems) that's put me a right good mood.

 

[ska invita]

I (now) know the concept of the PMC has been around for decades now, but its the first time ive come across it (thanks to you I think Smokeandsteam ) - Ive found it really useful - I cant stop applying it in my mind to everything going on in the UK. Liu's work is very US focussed - in fact it sounds like its a big part of her worklife and social circle! It would be great if someone took a similar approach to the UK, particularly on how it bleeds into UK-specific politics.

Ive always found the concept of the modern middle class very ambiguous and at times contradictory. There are still grey areas - I think Barbara Ehrenreich's update that many professional roles (such as teaching and nursing) have increasingly lost their middle class protection is important to factor in, but that also continues the grey area of it all.

Somehow PMC feels a lot sharper in focus to me. I wonder why.... maybe because its specifically naming job types? I think that's probably a key bit of it. If you take out the PMC from the Middle Class, who is left, and what can be said about that group that is different from the PMC?

 

[8ball]

Somehow PMC feels a lot sharper in focus to me. I wonder why.... maybe because its specifically naming job types? I think that's probably a key bit of it. If you take out the PMC from the Middle Class, who is left, and what can be said about that group that is different from the PMC?

I found it useful because while the PMC are still technically 'workers', they are very much the front line in the defense and ideological shoring up of the power of capital (although even harder to avoid interactions with).

They're like the mental arena's equivalent of the police force (calling the police a "service" never sits right with me). Imo.

Other non-PMC bits of the middle class could include the media, 'tame' creatives etc.

 

[Pickman's model]

I found it useful because while the PMC are still technically 'workers', they are very much the front line in the defense and ideological shoring up of the power of capital (although even harder to avoid interactions with).

They're like the mental arena's equivalent of the police force (calling the police a "service" never sits right with me). Imo.

It's a service if they work for you, it's a force if they work on you

 

[8ball]

It's a service if they work for you, it's a force if they work on you

I'm stealing that.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I (now) know the concept of the PMC has been around for decades now, but its the first time ive come across it (thanks to you I think Smokeandsteam ) - Ive found it really useful - I cant stop applying it in my mind to everything going on in the UK. Liu's work is very US focussed - in fact it sounds like its a big part of her worklife and social circle! It would be great if someone took a similar approach to the UK, particularly on how it bleeds into UK-specific politics.

Ive always found the concept of the modern middle class very ambiguous and at times contradictory. There are still grey areas - I think Barbara Ehrenreich's update that many professional roles (such as teaching and nursing) have increasingly lost their middle class protection is important to factor in, but that also continues the grey area of it all.

Somehow PMC feels a lot sharper in focus to me. I wonder why.... maybe because its specifically naming job types? I think that's probably a key bit of it. If you take out the PMC from the Middle Class, who is left, and what can be said about that group that is different from the PMC?

I'm still not totally clear what the PMC is. Is the key the 'managerial' bit? If so, does that mean it only applies to someone whose job is primarily concerned with managing the work of others?

 

[brogdale]

It's a service if they work for you, it's a force if they work on you

Always worth a pea roast

 

[danny la rouge]

I'm still not totally clear what the PMC is. Is the key the 'managerial' bit? If so, does that mean it only applies to someone whose job is primarily concerned with managing the work of others?

It’s outlined pretty comprehensively in the (excellent) article.

If you need an illustration, look at the so-called Twinkie wars, when in the 70s PMC leftists sneered at the contributions to house meeting table snacks and passive-aggressively tried to turn everyone onto organic granola muffins instead.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It’s outlined pretty comprehensively in the (excellent) article.

If you need an illustration, look at the so-called Twinkie wars, when in the 70s PMC leftists sneered at the contributions to house meeting table snacks and passive-aggressively tried to turn everyone onto organic granola muffins instead.

I read the article, but the definition seemed abstract to me. The closest I can find to a definition is this bit:

graduates specialising in symbolic manipulation – the hallmark of the PMC – compete for a shrinking number of jobs. Since their contributions are not measured in abstract numerical units, such as profit and loss for capitalists, or productivity for workers, their employability is defined by intangible status competition

Maybe I'm being thick, but I'm not clear what that means.

 

[planetgeli]

It’s outlined pretty comprehensively in the (excellent) article.

If you need an illustration, look at the so-called Twinkie wars, when in the 70s PMC leftists sneered at the contributions to house meeting table snacks and passive-aggressively tried to turn everyone onto organic granola muffins instead.

There were no organic granola muffins in my household in the 70s. Mind you, mum thought pasta was dangerously middle class too.

 

[8ball]

There were no organic granola muffins in my household in the 70s. Mind you, mum thought pasta was dangerously middle class too.

Aside from spag bol, alphabetti spaghetti and tinned ravioli, same here.
My Mum had middle-class aspirations tbf.

 

[danny la rouge]

I read the article, but the definition seemed abstract to me. The closest I can find to a definition is this bit:



Maybe I'm being thick, but I'm not clear what that means.

The article as a whole describes the pmc throughout. However, they don’t own their own means of production and have to sell their mental labour power to make a living, and are described in the first chapter of this: http://libcom.org/files/Rad America V11 I2.pdf

 

[Sue]

It’s outlined pretty comprehensively in the (excellent) article.

If you need an illustration, look at the so-called Twinkie wars, when in the 70s PMC leftists sneered at the contributions to house meeting table snacks and passive-aggressively tried to turn everyone onto organic granola muffins instead.

I like snacks and muffins. Am I a class traitor, greedy pig or both..?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The article as a whole describes the pmc throughout. However, they don’t own their own means of production and have to sell their mental labour power to make a living, and are described in the first chapter of this: http://libcom.org/files/Rad America V11 I2.pdf

Ok, it still wasn't clear to me what, or who, exactly they were talking about. Thanks for the link - that is much clearer for me as it gives concrete examples. Also, adding the hyphen 'professional-managerial' helped.

 

[8ball]

I like snacks and muffins. Am I a class traitor, greedy pig or both..?

Snacks are fine, so long as they are not organic, or say "plant based" on the packaging.

 

[danny la rouge]

I like snacks and muffins. Am I a class traitor, greedy pig or both..?

Not necessarily any of these. But you’d go in a list.

 

[8ball]

The article as a whole describes the pmc throughout. However, they don’t own their own means of production and have to sell their mental labour power to make a living, and are described in the first chapter of this: http://libcom.org/files/Rad America V11 I2.pdf

This is a really useful addendum (or preface) to the previous stuff.

 

[butchersapron]

Oh yeah, one thing i meant to add to my quick post earlier that i think has some relevance - indeed, she touched on this in her discussion of PMC dominance of Occupy etc so isn't unaware of this - the Democratic Socialists of America of which i believe she is a supporter/member, has 75 000 members. 60% of them have a PhD or professional degree, whilst 3% come from the traditional working class.

 

[Pickman's model]

Oh yeah, one thing i meant to add to my quick post earlier that i think has some relevance - indeed, she touched on this in her discussion of PMC dominance of Occupy etc so isn't unaware of this - the Democratic Socialists of America of which i believe she is a supporter/member, has 75 000 members. 60% of them have a PhD or professional degree, whilst 3% come from the traditional working class.

i wonder whether the concurrence between the dominance of this class within movements such as occupy and the great effusion of conspiracy theories occurring around the same time are connected.

 

[butchersapron]

i wonder whether the concurrence between the dominance of this class within movements such as occupy and the great effusion of conspiracy theories occurring around the same time are connected.

Well, within the discussion in Virtue Hoarded about Occupy, Adbusters were identified as being key to it getting established and also as being both very influential in its failures and in being exemplars of the PMC. Of course, it was adbusters who were accused of smuggling in anti-semitism (even prior to occupy) and conspiracist tropes into the thing.

 

[chilango]

Well, within the discussion in Virtue Hoarded about Occupy, Adbusters were identified as being key to it getting established and also as being both very influential in its failures and in being exemplars of the PMC. Of course, it was adbusters who were accused of smuggling in anti-semitism (even prior to occupy) and conspiracist tropes into the thing.

Oh You got a link to the adbusters stuff. I used to like them

 

[ska invita]

I'm still not totally clear what the PMC is. Is the key the 'managerial' bit? If so, does that mean it only applies to someone whose job is primarily concerned with managing the work of others?

For me the managerial bit is the key to it, or the bit that interests me the most. Its the psychology of the uncritical manager that has the struck a chord of truth, and how that attitude of compromise seeps into wider social consciousness.

Managerialism is structurally centrist as in practice it has to manage workers for capital.
Managerialism has a big dose of Mark Fishers Capitalist Realism in it ; "Capitalist realism as I (Mark) understand it is.......like a pervasive atmosphere, conditioning not only the production of culture but also the regulation of work and education, and acting as a kind of invisible barrier constraining thought and action."

Starmer is "a Manager". He's also a Professional though, and its easy to think of professional people who also hold values and attitudes that overlap with managerialism. In many cases a successful professional is also a superior to other workers around their workplace, and there's probably management work for them to be done.

But the professional category seems leaky to me: I see no reason for a nurse not to be considered working class. Thinking of teachers I have known some seem to me to be working class whilst others have had that managerialist dogma about them, even if they're not deputy/department heads etc

And this is another reason why the middle class as a category is leaky full stop to me: lets presume in a theoretical group, no PMC person owns the means of production and are therefore WC, some will adopt managerialism and power of position whilst others won't. Management roles are particularly prone to this I think, though its not impossible to have a "good" manager who genuinely works in the interest of all workers.

So yeah for me its managers, management thinking, management attitudes, managers all the way down! In the past I thought in terms of bosses, but bosses is different to managerialism. Boss feels like the very top job. Managerialism is more pervasive, even to people who aren't themselves managers.

Other non-PMC bits of the middle class could include the media, 'tame' creatives etc.

I'd think they can go in with the professionals if enjoying enough authority.
?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

For me the managerial bit is the key to it, or the bit that interests me the most. Its the psychology of the uncritical manager that has the struck a chord of truth, and how that attitude of compromise seeps into wider social consciousness.

Managerialism is structurally centrist as in practice it has to manage workers for capital.
Managerialism has a big dose of Mark Fishers Capitalist Realism in it ; "Capitalist realism as I (Mark) understand it is.......like a pervasive atmosphere, conditioning not only the production of culture but also the regulation of work and education, and acting as a kind of invisible barrier constraining thought and action."

Starmer is "a Manager". He's also a Professional though, and its easy to think of professional people who also hold values and attitudes that overlap with managerialism. In many cases a successful professional is also a superior to other workers around their workplace, and there's probably management work for them to be done.

But the professional category seems leaky to me: I see no reason for a nurse not to be considered working class. Thinking of teachers I have known some seem to me to be working class whilst others have had that managerialist dogma about them, even if they're not deputy/department heads etc

And this is another reason why the middle class as a category is leaky full stop to me: lets presume in a theoretical group, no PMC person owns the means of production and are therefore WC, some will adopt managerialism and power of position whilst others won't. Management roles are particularly prone to this I think, though its not impossible to have a "good" manager who genuinely works in the interest of all workers.

So yeah for me its managers, management thinking, management attitudes, managers all the way down! In the past I thought in terms of bosses, but bosses is different to managerialism. Boss feels like the very top job. Managerialism is more pervasive, even to people who aren't themselves managers.


I'd think they can go in with the professionals if enjoying enough authority.
?

you're confusing me again now. Danny's link made sense to me to the extent that it wasn't like you're saying here. It was quite explicit, I thought, that it was professional or managerial, rather than and.

Maybe I'm still reading it wrongly or maybe there are just fuzzy edges to it. There are plenty of jobs that involve selling your mental abilities that don't involve management in any real sense, and whose output can be measured very easily in terms of productivity.

You might end up being helped by someone else or being part of a collaborative team, but I still wouldn't necessarily class that as management really, or if it is management, then management is an extremely widespread thing, involving anyone who has any responsibility for the work of others - anyone not really junior in a variety of settings? A sous chef is a manager by that definition, but surely that's not managerialism.

To give a concrete example, because that helps me: Writer/editor/designer for a book or magazine, where there will be instructions and ideas about what to do going back and forth according to the particular area of expertise/responsibility. One out of that team might end up saddled with the project management of the thing, but that's a pain and the boring admin bit none of them actually wants to do, often. It adds responsibility, but I wouldn't say it fundamentally changes your relationship with your colleagues or your work. If anything, I would call that being taken advantage of by the bosses - people getting lumbered with more responsibility usually without any kind of pay rise.

 

[hitmouse]

Oh You got a link to the adbusters stuff. I used to like them

On adbusters, there's this: Anti-semitism in Adbusters, 2004
Went round a bit in 2011, for instance: Much Ado About ‘Adbusters’ Relationship to the Jews

On the DSA's make-up, what did people think of this from N+1? Professional-Managerial Chasm
I looked it up because that Conter article characterises it as "the worst of bad faith grifting, as with N+1’s apologia for Elizabeth Warren". I still have a fair bit of reading and thinking to do around this stuff, but I didn't read it as a bad faith grifty apologia for Warren, and frankly that characterisation made me suspicious of the Conter writer's own good faith or lack of.

 

[butchersapron]

More on adbusters

That N+1 peice is the kick off for a good old rant in the Virtue Hoarded book. Calls it PMC apologia and left-bashing and an attempt to get Sanders + supporters to bend the knee to warren.

 

[chilango]

Thanks. haven't picked up a copy of Adbusters for at least 15 years. That's sad to see.

 

[Red Sky]

I've just read it. It's a blazing hilarious polemic (with a few utterly minor problems) that's put me a right good mood.

"Within living memory, there were socialist cultures that defined themselves as working class, sometimes at the cost of silliness. At any activist get-together, there were Mockney accents, tracksuits and flat caps aplenty"


Not just a memory

 

[kenny g]

Would you Adam and Eve it at my last branch meeting of the slaver party someone got it into their brown bread to try and slather on about their creds. Became a right old rubble with various bringing up the fact they are a brief was only following an apprenticeship paid for by the docks. This still goes on and is pitiful to watch. One of the best things about the speegie beebeis was that members were at least authentic in their alienation.

 

[kenny g]

SWP meetings were the worst for teachers trying to be East Enders characters.

 

[ska invita]

Has anyone read this?

We Have Never Been Middle Class

Tidings of a shrinking middle class in one part of the world and its expansion in another absorb our attention, but seldom do we question the category itself. We Have Never Been Middle Class proposes that the middle class is an ideology. Tracing this ideology up to the age of financialisation...

www.versobooks.com

Going by the blurb, doesnt sound right to me
sounds like someone in denial perhaps