Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yes you got it wrong (as danny pointed out) and i simply supplied the correct version.
Why do people from privileged class backgrounds often misidentify their origins as working class?
- Thread starter brogdale
- Start date
seeformiles
Lost in the wood
I think the key line that rings true for me in Pulp’s “Common People” is the line “If you called your dad he could stop it all”. People with no such fall back position can’t take as many risks in terms of pursuing certain careers like the arts. Too busy putting bread on the table and paying rent while being told by those who do have family support how unadventurous they are in terms of their choices. Heard enough of that crap from Uni housemates who were pretty much waiting to inherit the family fortune.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I was just making my own Karl/Groucho gag, to be fair.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yours at least had the merit of being funny
pretty much every good idea which comes from a wc position (free festivals, music, fashion, art) gets stolen and monetised (and sanitised) by the middle classes. Is this a fair assessment or just some drooling rubbish from a disaffected loser.
I have a wood (yep, I think the desire for land was a visceral need for this peasant). My immediate neighbours have all started 'forest schools' creative writing classes, yoga retreats, glamping sites and wedding venues. My class history absolutely precludes me from entering into this world, even though I am horribly skint. I have opened it up for the use of the local community and am getting some pushback from my neighbours. It is fascinating (to me) that social capital and confidence has not fallen on my shoulders despite being a land-owner and having a degree or 2. Class and its discontents is all very complex for this simpleton (so much so that I am packing my toolbag to go and play in the soil).
I have a wood (yep, I think the desire for land was a visceral need for this peasant). My immediate neighbours have all started 'forest schools' creative writing classes, yoga retreats, glamping sites and wedding venues. My class history absolutely precludes me from entering into this world, even though I am horribly skint. I have opened it up for the use of the local community and am getting some pushback from my neighbours. It is fascinating (to me) that social capital and confidence has not fallen on my shoulders despite being a land-owner and having a degree or 2. Class and its discontents is all very complex for this simpleton (so much so that I am packing my toolbag to go and play in the soil).
cloudyday
caput mortuum
one of the (many) things that fuck me off is the appropriation of allotments by the MC in the seventies, pushed via programmes such as the vile Good Life with Felicity Kendal. These days many on the left will denounce allotments and laugh at working class folk having the audacity to grow their own veg.
On my small site (17 plots) there is not a single one which is being worked by someone who isn't a home-owner with gardens (although tbf, one of them only has a balcony and a shared community garden). This is not a large urban site, which tend to be more heterogenous, but a small site in the middle of the muesli belt. Not a single renter (except me). I remember long waiting lists in the 70s - not just 'The Good Life, but the Seymour's 'Self-Sufficiency' created a big surge in allotment use. By the 90s, allotments were out of fashion again and the council couldn't rent them fast enough (my youngest had one too), so at one stage, I had 4, at 2 different sites and had one in Brighton when I was at college (92-5) By around 2005/6/7, 'grow your own' was back in fashion and allotments were highly sought after - it was impossible to rent a whole plot, with council allocated divisions and subdivisions... so I started to get some grief for having more than anyone else (2 at that time) and worse, was selfishly growing flowers instead of feeding a family. I almost gave in to keep the peace (plus, there was the wood, although not accessible by bike) until it got a bit nasty, with accusations flying around on social media (at which point I dug in my heels) I couldn't help but notice none of my fellow allotmenteers were not giving up spare bedrooms to homeless people. (while I have to pay the bedroom tax)...and a few were not doing much on their allotment either (I was offered money to maintain one of the plots!). At least 2 of them have a second home (in France and Spain) and bugger off every summer anyway. Suspect for some, it's all about lifestyle boasting.. although I have to be firm with myself that I am not being 'greedy and selfish'.
Apols for wandering off topic (although I think there is some overlap with a certain type of mc person very keen to adopt some 'son of the soil', imaginary peasant style with claims that they are growing food to save money).
Who are these people on the left denouncing allotments? I haven't come across this.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
cloudyday
caput mortuum
From my experience of some, you can get a mix of:
- why will the working class revolt if they have full bellies? best keep them in a state of discontent so we can step in and guide them when they kick off.
- they will only sell what they grow and become petit-bourgeois.
- if people stopped partaking in the globalised production process it would effect technological development and put a spanner in us all going to live on mars.
The Pale King
Well-Known Member
imo the concept of the proletariat / working class has an inherently speculative character - I'm sure there were similar definitional fuzziness at the time Marx and Engels were writing around aristocracies of labour/access to cultural/symbolic capital (Blind Date excepted obviously). I think by describing the working class Marx brought it into being, and it brings itself into being by realizing that it is the working class. The concept has the character not of an empirical description, but a postulate, a wager, a 'hail'. Similarly, the working class (constituted both by its objective relation to the means of production and its subjective self realization of this position and the possibilities for action/resistance/transformation such knowledge grounds) is the only class capable of creating the conditions for its own self abolition, in the moment when it acquires this knowledge through political struggle... or something, running out of steam here tbh
So yeah, I think winning (fractions of) the petite bourgeois over as Serge, Danny and others have said is both possible and necessary.
So yeah, I think winning (fractions of) the petite bourgeois over as Serge, Danny and others have said is both possible and necessary.
these are real things that actual people have said?
cloudyday
caput mortuum
I'm being a little creative with 1 & 3, although I don't think they are too wide of the mark in essence. Number 2 i've heard straight from the horses mouth.
I have to say, I have never heard 1 or 3 (apart from some shit immiseration argument) and 2 is just silly and only likely to come from someone who has never actually worked a 10 pole allotment.
caveat...I do sell stuff I have grown (plants, cut flowers) but to imagine it makes any real difference to my living costs is...ridiculous...and when actually applied to vegetables, is laughable. I barely manage a few extra additions to my dinners and even my most sustained and intensive crop (tomatoes) only keeps me in ketchup and sauce for a few months.
caveat...I do sell stuff I have grown (plants, cut flowers) but to imagine it makes any real difference to my living costs is...ridiculous...and when actually applied to vegetables, is laughable. I barely manage a few extra additions to my dinners and even my most sustained and intensive crop (tomatoes) only keeps me in ketchup and sauce for a few months.
krink
I'll do it this afternoon
The resident trot nightmare I mentioned earlier said it was ridiculous and a waste of time for people to grow food, learn to look after themselves, learn how to live in harmony with nature etc. They should spend their time listening to him talk about Trotsky for eternity. The dickhead.
On my plot we have two posh m.class types who are not originally from the area but they're dead canny and not those poncy artisan m.class types. The rest of us are all bog standard locals.
On my plot we have two posh m.class types who are not originally from the area but they're dead canny and not those poncy artisan m.class types. The rest of us are all bog standard locals.
Yeah, some of the bigger sites have a much wider mix of gardeners but my site is truly mc. I get on OK with most of them but it never escapes my attention that I am the only council estate resident. It wasn't always the case...but I have seen some really depressing demographic changes in my hometown...particularly in this very small, central site, over the last 20odd years I have been on this allotment.
I really only feel a bit mocking towards a couple of them (quite well paid professionals) who always make such a song and dance that they are 'saving money' and that whole frugal shit (although they never actually stump up for decent fertiliser or equipment and often buy plug plants...of bloody lettuces and stuff... They give me a hard time for growing 'fripperies' instead of 'feeding my family' ( Grief, I am a snob too, I guess).
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krink
I'll do it this afternoon
Everyone on our plot (there's 28 gardens) is sound, friendly and really helpful. About half are retired. Everyone shares tips, seeds, spare veg and stops for a chat. We couldn't care less what people grow! I'm from Sunderland which is still vast majority working class and white but they've all taken the two mc people and an Indian family under their wing. I think it's great that a shared interest has got people mixing and really getting on with each other. However, it might be different if locals ever feel displaced by mc gardeners.
A lot of wc people are totally displaced...not just from allotments but from any chance of living in this increasingly polarised town. Fucking silicon fen...I hate it in many ways.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Excellent piece by Kenan Malik;
‘Implicit here is the suggestion that those who are in precarious or low-paying jobs, or are unemployed, have only themselves to blame for not having the wherewithal to escape their background. Meritocracy becomes the means both to create the illusion of working-class roots for those who have become middle class and to demonise as insufficiently go-getting those left behind. They are the “left behind” in the sense of being victims not of globalisation or deindustrialisation or austerity but of their own moral, cultural and intellectual deficiencies’.
www.theguardian.com
‘Implicit here is the suggestion that those who are in precarious or low-paying jobs, or are unemployed, have only themselves to blame for not having the wherewithal to escape their background. Meritocracy becomes the means both to create the illusion of working-class roots for those who have become middle class and to demonise as insufficiently go-getting those left behind. They are the “left behind” in the sense of being victims not of globalisation or deindustrialisation or austerity but of their own moral, cultural and intellectual deficiencies’.
Age-old notions of the noble savage haunt views of working-class life | Kenan Malik
So many middle-class Britons identify as blue-collar in a bid for ‘authenticity’
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
I think there are also echoes here from various forms of religious belief. Calvinist Protestants believing that God predestined everyone to whatever role in life they inhabit, so that the well-off classes deserve their wealth and the poor deserve their sinful lot. Catholic Christians believing that the poor give the opportunity for their betters to dispense charity, so inequality is necessary. Hindus and Buddhists believing that your karma determines your species, sex and/or social status. Etc. I'm over simplifying here, but many, not all, religious beliefs give moral justification to class difference, indeed allow self-glorification of both earned and inherited wealth.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
Kenan Malik said:
My experience chimes with this, and I'd add that a lot of socially vital jobs are very low paid, which conceals how important the work itself is. For example, if everyone on minimum wage went on strike for one week, the entire country would be fucked. They'd call in the army.
Devaluing the work, having a "minimum wage" instead of a maximum wage, is all about undermining any power that might grow among people who know how important their work is to society. Letting wealthy people get away with describing themselves as 'working class' unchallenged, is still more undermining.
We've all been convinced to accept this premise that low paid work is low skilled work and not important becuse it isn't wealth creating or some shit.
The labour market values such work less than...
Ah fuck off.
ska invita
back on the other side
Some useful discussion here particularly about the grey areas of working to middle class definition
00:00 What is the PMC? 9:07 The PMC and COVID School Reopening 22:07 The PMC Love Empathy, Not Solidarity 35:00 Catherine Liu Interview on the Professional-Managerial Class 1:44:54 Closing Thoughts
i put playback speed at 0.75 as they talk too fast
00:00 What is the PMC? 9:07 The PMC and COVID School Reopening 22:07 The PMC Love Empathy, Not Solidarity 35:00 Catherine Liu Interview on the Professional-Managerial Class 1:44:54 Closing Thoughts
i put playback speed at 0.75 as they talk too fast
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Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
Too long. Are they discussing class as an identity then?
ska invita
back on the other side
no
includes mention of this essay from 2013, for example
The rise and fall of the professional-managerial class.
BARBARA AND JOHN EHRENREICH
*i like to listen to stuff while cooking
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Dystopiary
putting up a hook to hang my hopes upon
I think the non-academic answer is, because they are twats.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
no
includes mention of this essay from 201, for example
The rise and fall of the professional-managerial class.
BARBARA AND JOHN EHRENREICH
*i like to listen to stuff while cooking
I listened to an interview with Barbara Ehrenreich recently where she discussed the background to their seminal piece. It was very interesting in terms of periodisation. I’ll see if I can dig it out and post it here.
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
Ta. I might have a listen if I get a spare couple of hours.no
includes mention of this essay from 201, for example
The rise and fall of the professional-managerial class.
BARBARA AND JOHN EHRENREICH
*i like to listen to stuff while cooking
ska invita
back on the other side
skip around using the chapter links, its in bits, that helps break it up
ETA
the main interview is particularly good - talking about how the managerial have seperated out and up form the professional middle class, who no longer enjoy middle class status - plus other stratifications within the PMC
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Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Bumping this thread because I think Foley’s review of Catherine Liu’s book ‘Virtue Hoarders’ need to be more widely read. This is both a good piece of writing and really penetrating on what the PMC is and what role it plays within the left (and what role the left plays for it
www.conter.co.uk
Info on the book, which I haven’t read, is here:
www.upress.umn.edu
The New Dangerous Class? The PMC And Virtue Hoarding | Conter
In a review of a new book about the ‘Professional Managerial Class’ , James Foley says middle-class activists dress up conformity as a war on cultural backwardness.
www.conter.co.uk
Info on the book, which I haven’t read, is here:
Virtue Hoarders
A denunciation of the credentialed elite class that serves capitalism while insisting on its own progressive heroism Professional Managerial Class (PMC) elit...
www.upress.umn.edu
ska invita
back on the other side
she talks about the book at length hereBumping this thread because I think Foley’s review of Catherine Liu’s book ‘Virtue Hoarders’ need to be more widely read. This is both a good piece of writing and really penetrating on what the PMC is and what role it plays within the left (and what role the left plays for it
The New Dangerous Class? The PMC And Virtue Hoarding | Conter
In a review of a new book about the ‘Professional Managerial Class’ , James Foley says middle-class activists dress up conformity as a war on cultural backwardness.
Info on the book, which I haven’t read, is here:
Virtue Hoarders
A denunciation of the credentialed elite class that serves capitalism while insisting on its own progressive heroism Professional Managerial Class (PMC) elit...
shes on at 35minutes
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Yeah, thanks Ska. I saw that when you posted it. Haven’t had time to listen to it yet but intend to.
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