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Why Did Darwinism Emerge?

Hmmm. I don't really see the value in thinking like that. Scientific ideas exist above culture - the theory of relativity is the same in any language. In that sense, science does produce transcendent truths, or at least transcendent hypotheses.
Scientific ideas don't exist "above" culture, they're shot through with the damn stuff. How many cases can you think of where a scientific idea was not taken up, but was later looked back on with awe as being before it's time? It's happened a lot, hasn't it, and why? Because within culture, sometimes ideas are unable to fully emerge, they're "beyond the pale", regardless of the transcendence of the idea. making a statement about the theory of relativity being the same in every language misses the point that without the particular scientific and social contexts present at the time Einstein noted his theory of relativity, he couldn't have done so.
 
I can only repeat what I said to dwyer earlier

That the theory of evolution would not have been thought of without capitalism is am intersting idea. However the truth or falsehood of that idea has no bearing whatever on the truth or falsehood of the theory of rvolution.
 
I can only repeat what I said to dwyer earlier

That the theory of evolution would not have been thought of without capitalism is am intersting idea. However the truth or falsehood of that idea has no bearing whatever on the truth or falsehood of the theory of rvolution.

Of course not. I'm merely stating that you can't divorce ideas entirely from the culture in which they're incubated (or, as in some cases, cannot be incubated).
 
It is evident that we are animals, a quick read of 'Naked Ape' shows that we are similar in so many ways that to argue differently would I hope be unlikely.

The division that some seem keen to argue is that we are somehow special as a species.

We certainly don't know all the details as to the mechanism of evolution, but so what? It is still describing historical fact. The religious might try to argue that there is still some kind of vague force driving it, but that is their choice.

As is always the case with the religious, a secular society enables them to live freely but not to impose their will on others. Thus all religions are treated the same - IMO they are all just dubious stories which seem unwilling to acknowledge scientific method. Such anti-rationalism shows how confused people are, and how open to bullshit they can be.

Evolution was driven forward simply by the needs of the environment, the existence of islands, the availability of food and shelter etc., but there is no need to speculate on the sidelines in this way - it happened, we are simply another animal which has evolved a large brain, and so can manipulate its environment extremely well.

The origin of species is that its central argument, a very simple idea, is still essentially correct. He nailed it, and the rest has been an expansion and refinement of the idea, a building upon it.

Indeed, the rest is just details - we don't know how, but there is no doubt that this is how it historically happened - and it continues in the same way as new colds get caught each year.

The progress from the pre-scientific age into the more rationalist present, meant that historical truths such as these are more likely to be recognised and recorded.

As part of the animal kingdom, it is no surprise to see the strong imposing their will on the weak - or with currency - the rich imposing their will on the poor. Thus the need for a modern system of government with rights, checks and balances to limit such tyranny, esp of the majority over minorities etc.
 
As usually happens with my threads, this one is growing so fast that it is hard to keep up. I'll try to catch up over the next 24 hours, but this post seems to capture the basic Darwinist error so perfectly that it demands an immediate rebuttal.

It is evident that we are animals, a quick read of 'Naked Ape' shows that we are similar in so many ways that to argue differently would I hope be unlikely.
The division that some seem keen to argue is that we are somehow special as a species.

Of all the misconceptions imbued by Darwisnism, this is the most egregious. It defies all common sense, as well as the most basic empirical observation, to claim that human beings are merely animals.

There is no need to do more than look around you to see the massive and unmistakeable gullf between human and animal life. That difference is facilitated by our unique possession of reason--and there can be no evolutionary or biological explanation for reason.

Its status as the definitive characteristic of human beings is what has led the monothesitic religions (at least in their most sophisticated forms) to equate reason (logos in Greek) with God Himself: see John 1.1 et cetera.

The ideological consequences of neglecting this fact are evident here:

As part of the animal kingdom, it is no surprise to see the strong imposing their will on the weak - or with currency - the rich imposing their will on the poor.

And there we have it: capitalism is human nature.

That is the cry of Darwinists over the last 150 years. Nor is this surprising, since the idea originates with Darwin himself. And that is the most important reason why Darwinism ought in my view to be opposed.
 
As usually happens with my threads, this one is growing so fast that it is hard to keep up. I'll try to catch up over the next 24 hours, but this post seems to capture the basic Darwinist error so perfectly that it demands an immediate rebuttal.

Of all the misconceptions imbued by Darwisnism, this is the most egregious. It defies all common sense, as well as the most basic empirical observation, to claim that human beings are merely animals.

There is no need to do more than look around you to see the massive and unmistakeable gullf between human and animal life. That difference is facilitated by our unique possession of reason--and there can be no evolutionary or biological explanation for reason.

Its status as the definitive characteristic of human beings is what has led the monothesitic religions (at least in their most sophisticated forms) to equate reason (logos in Greek) with God Himself: see John 1.1 et cetera.

The ideological consequences of neglecting this fact are evident here:

And there we have it: capitalism is human nature.

That is the cry of Darwinists over the last 150 years. Nor is this surprising, since the idea originates with Darwin himself. And that is the most important reason why Darwinism ought in my view to be opposed.
You misunderstand me - I didn't mean to imply that humans were 'merely animals', I meant to say 'merely animals with a big brain' - a sort of giraffe but with a big brain, not a neck.

And you are right, there is a need to look around - we fart, shit, piss, shag, bear live young, eat food to provide energy for ourselves, form pair bonds - the list is endless.

That is not to detract from reason and its natural ally scientific method - which is why evolution is simply a fact as LBJ and others stated earlier - the details are uncertain in some areas but it is a stone cold fact that somehow animals evolved over a huge period of time and eventually we came along.

As far as 'capitalism' goes, the strong will indeed impose their will on the weak if they are not tempered by an agreed system. This requires cooperation and communication - something we has also evolved. Being able to own assets as capital is a somewhat different issue.
 
Without wishing to give offense, you seem to have some kind of phobia or hang-up about the Bible. Every mention of it evokes a weird cry or baffled shriek or agonized yelp from you.

What's the problem exactly?
It's a load of bollocks written down years after the event by people with vested interests and many up the Chinese whispers chain quite likely had undiagnosed psychotic illnesses.
 
It's actually the words of god........That's why it not full of contradiction and bullshit like being able to wear more than one type of material.......
 
It's actually the words of god........That's why it not full of contradiction and bullshit like being able to wear more than one type of material.......
Yes, I really think the revised King James should have included the full 600-odd rules ...
 
It's a load of bollocks written down years after the event by people with vested interests and many up the Chinese whispers chain quite likely had undiagnosed psychotic illnesses.

It's a collection of different kinds of literature, written over a period of at least 1,000 years.

Which part of it do you have a problem with?
 
It's a load of bollocks written down years after the event by people with vested interests and many up the Chinese whispers chain quite likely had undiagnosed psychotic illnesses.


Imagine someone saying that about The Iliad.

You'd think they were pretty ignorant, right?

Well, the same rules apply I'm afraid.
 
It's a load of bollocks written down years after the event by people with vested interests and many up the Chinese whispers chain quite likely had undiagnosed psychotic illnesses.

And anyway, none of this explains your triumphalist cry of "bingo."

What was that all about?
 
Of all the misconceptions imbued by Darwisnism, this is the most egregious. It defies all common sense, as well as the most basic empirical observation, to claim that human beings are merely animals.

There is no need to do more than look around you to see the massive and unmistakeable gullf between human and animal life. That difference is facilitated by our unique possession of reason--and there can be no evolutionary or biological explanation for reason.

Its status as the definitive characteristic of human beings .....

I'll agree that reason etc, the output of the brain, is relatively unique to humans, just as big ears are unique to african elephants. It's our adaptive survival tool. Skunks have scent. Porquipines have quills. We have big brains.

Our tool has let us have a pretty nice run, but now, thanks to our success, we are multiplying like lice on a wet dog, and consuming the planet's resources at an ever increasing rate as we do so. We are overrepresented in the world, like any other animal that no longer has a predator - like rabbits when first introduced to Australia.

And there will be a correction, just as there always is whenever a particular species ends up out of balance. And we, most definitely, are out of balance.
 
Since this is a quite barking thread I'll just chip in and wish everyone a Happy New Year for what looks set to be a barking 2012. :)
 
The Greeks regarded it as precisely that.
A few may have done at one time. It's no longer treated as such, or can you prove otherwise?

Since this is a quite barking thread I'll just chip in and wish everyone a Happy New Year for what looks set to be a barking 2012. :)
Happy New Year to you and the sane majority (I hope). :)
 
It is evident that we are animals, a quick read of 'Naked Ape' shows that we are similar in so many ways that to argue differently would I hope be unlikely.

"The Naked Ape" isn't exactly an excellent text on which to base your argument. It's a partisan account by an anthropologist, and should be addressed as such.

The division that some seem keen to argue is that we are somehow special as a species.

I'm not aware of anyone making such an argument.

We certainly don't know all the details as to the mechanism of evolution, but so what? It is still describing historical fact. The religious might try to argue that there is still some kind of vague force driving it, but that is their choice.

It's not "describing historical fact", it is representing the sum of our understanding at this time. With science, "facts" are always subject to revision.

As is always the case with the religious, a secular society enables them to live freely but not to impose their will on others. Thus all religions are treated the same - IMO they are all just dubious stories which seem unwilling to acknowledge scientific method. Such anti-rationalism shows how confused people are, and how open to bullshit they can be.

Evolution was driven forward simply by the needs of the environment, the existence of islands, the availability of food and shelter etc., but there is no need to speculate on the sidelines in this way - it happened, we are simply another animal which has evolved a large brain, and so can manipulate its environment extremely well.

"Large brain", opposable thumbs, tool use. All explanations for our ability to manipulate our environments. Surely anyone with an ounce of curiosity is going to ask "why"? Just saying "it happened" in reference to evolution is as unsatisfying and as religiously-minded as all the canting priests and believers telling you not to question G-d's work.

Indeed, the rest is just details - we don't know how, but there is no doubt that this is how it historically happened - and it continues in the same way as new colds get caught each year.

The progress from the pre-scientific age into the more rationalist present, meant that historical truths such as these are more likely to be recognised and recorded.

As part of the animal kingdom, it is no surprise to see the strong imposing their will on the weak - or with currency - the rich imposing their will on the poor. Thus the need for a modern system of government with rights, checks and balances to limit such tyranny, esp of the majority over minorities etc.

Such certainty. Such a lack of enquiry.
 
It's a load of bollocks written down years after the event by people with vested interests and many up the Chinese whispers chain quite likely had undiagnosed psychotic illnesses.

Harsh and unfair. It's an assemblage of stories written by diverse authors which has suffered textual drift, and has been interpreted (and that's the important point here) throughout history by some (whether due to belief or due to motives related to exercising social control) to signify a template for living a "G-dly" life.
 
Without wishing to give offense, you seem to have some kind of phobia or hang-up about the Bible. Every mention of it evokes a weird cry or baffled shriek or agonized yelp from you.

What's the problem exactly?

My problem with the Bible, (as it is with the Koran and any other book) is that it is written by humans who know no more about god than any human can. The New Testament, of course, is just one long peice of propaganda.
 
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