Why are lots of people annoyed at Nick Clegg today?

[newbie]

I think you're right here, though some combination of AV and PR might be on the table. The two most imortant things is not to allow:
i) the whole thing to get bogged down in committees as you mention and
ii) not to allow a 3-option referendum. When the republic movement in Australia couldn't sort out their differences over political reform there, the conservatives in power seized on the opportunity and held a 3-option referendum. The Monarchy option won, despite the combined vote for a republic being well over 50%. Clegg cannot allow PR and AV to split the reform vote on any referendum.

That crunching noise is the sound of minds being concentrated, which is why it'd be interesting to be a fly on the wall in all the various smoke-free rooms just now.

I think the electorate would buy equal size constituencies + AV, not sure about fixed term parliaments, maybe, while PR would sink like a stone. If the LDs can push the Cs into something along those lines they just might avoid being squeezed into insignificance at the next election. Otherwise they're history, the futility of voting for the third party having just been brutally exposed.

Even the tories can see how fptp has shafted them- more votes than Blair yielding no majority rather than a landslide.

 

[ska invita]

Electoral reform, europe, immigration, defence, public spending - I can't see any deals that would work for the Lib Dems or their principles.

defo. if by some miracle there is a lib/con deal it'll be this before you know it:

(spotted this uncanny resemblance this morning!)

adds a whole new surreal level to eraserhead!

 

[fen_boy]

Eraserhead is fucking shit.

 

[ska invita]

Eraserhead is fucking shit.

 

[Maidmarian]

I wonder if any of the newly-elected MPs are being courted to cross the floor as I write ?

& how long it'll be before some start doing so ?

 

[treelover]

tv news, reporting Brown has just had 'angry exchange' with Clegg

 

[Maidmarian]

tv news, reporting Brown has just had 'angry exchange' with Clegg

Yes , they had a tiff last night.

 

[butchersapron]

Follow the spin on this - lib-dem leaks then an official denial. Well engineered you rats.

 

[Corax]

Clegg talks to Cameron and demands PR. Cameron refuses.

Clegg can then talk to Labour, without having reneged on his 'strongest mandate' promise.

 

[Maidmarian]

Just seen footage of all 3 of 'em coming out of some VE day ceremony -----------talk about looking glum !! All three of 'em !

 

[stupid dogbot]

What would it take to get Cameron and his fag into a Polish light aircraft, I wonder?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Clegg talks to Cameron and demands PR. Cameron refuses.

Clegg can then talk to Labour, without having reneged on his 'strongest mandate' promise.

Or perhaps: Clegg talks to Cameron, agrees fudge ("promise to discuss a referendum on voting reform"), joins with Tories.

 

[spanglechick]

Or perhaps: Clegg talks to Cameron, agrees fudge ("promise to discuss a referendum on voting reform"), joins with Tories.

... and finds half lib dem MPs and more of the grassroots support cross floor to labour / leave the party for good.

I'm not saying a libcon pact won't happen, but it would be a suicidal act for the libdem party. No fucker will ever vote for them again.

 

[butchersapron]

How come all this suggested outrage within the lib-dems at them contemplating a coalition with the tories didn't make an appearance when they formed coalitions with the tories in 11 or so councils to cut local services and jobs? Where was the principled refusals and resignations then?

 

[treelover]

Labour reject 'progressive alliance' with SNP/Plaid,

too left wing for them?

 

[cesare]

... and finds half lib dem MPs and more of the grassroots support cross floor to labour / leave the party for good.

I'm not saying a libcon pact won't happen, but it would be a suicidal act for the libdem party. No fucker will ever vote for them again.

In which circumstances do you suppose they won't lose votes now?

 

[Lo Siento.]

Or perhaps: Clegg talks to Cameron, agrees fudge ("promise to discuss a referendum on voting reform"), joins with Tories.

He'd have to be some kind of stupid to agree to that. (a) the Tories will never give them electoral reform. Ever (b) all those anti-Tory tactical votes that stopped them losing about half their seats, say bye bye.

 

[spanglechick]

In which circumstances do you suppose they won't lose votes now?

I'm sure they're damned all ways - but from where I'm looking, making an alliance with the tories is what more would find unforgivable.

 

[the button]

How come all this suggested outrage within the lib-dems at them contemplating a coalition with the tories didn't make an appearance when they formed coalitions with the tories in 11 or so councils to cut local services and jobs? Where was the principled refusals and resignations then?

True.

I would say the LibDem's main priority is avoiding another general election. They'd be fucking annihilated cos it's become fairly clear what the outcome of voting for them is.

 

[ska invita]

How come all this suggested outrage within the lib-dems at them contemplating a coalition with the tories didn't make an appearance when they formed coalitions with the tories in 11 or so councils to cut local services and jobs? Where was the principled refusals and resignations then?

Because running a council is completely different from national government. yes, national governments are ever more managerial, but that really is true at council level.

There are also labour/conservative run councils (I know of East Dunbartonshire, but Id guess there are others), technically with no overall control. Such is the work of councils.

 

[cesare]

True.

I would say the LibDem's main priority is avoiding another general election. They'd be fucking annihilated cos it's become fairly clear what the outcome of voting for them is.

This is why I think Cameron and Clegg will come to a gentlemen's agreement *spit*

 

[ska invita]

They'd be fucking annihilated cos it's become fairly clear what the outcome of voting for them is.

i think its only fair to see what that outcome is before saying that.

*how to did i ever get myself into being the libdem defender on here?? if your going to abuse me dont answer that

 

[spanglechick]

I think a lot of westminster types ignore local council goings on. And they just don't come onto many voters' radar - especially if it isn't happening in their area. Also, the issue of PR is not something that is under question in local councils. There may be a more real sense of feeling that a local council pact could have meaningful influence / damage limitation.

 

[Lo Siento.]

In which circumstances do you suppose they won't lose votes now?

I think their best option is as follows: Declare the currently electoral system an abomination that distorts the will of the British people. Say that FPTP has produced an absurd chaos making the formation of an effective government impossible. Say that electoral reform is the most pressng issue the country has to deal with. Agree to a temporary pact with Labour to deliver electoral form, to be dissolved upon it's completion with a promise of fresh elections afterwards.

Any votes they lost through dealing with Labour would be limited by announcing the arrangement was temporary and limited, and based only on a common appetite for electoral reform. This would be more than compensated for by achieving electoral reform and opening the door to all those people who say they'll vote Lib Dem and in the voting booth plump for the least worst of the Tories and Labour.

Plus, if he's dramatic enough about, it could make him look principled.

 

[butchersapron]

Because running a council is completely different from national government. yes, national governments are ever more managerial, but that really is true at council level.

There are also labour/conservative run councils (I know of East Dunbartonshire, but Id guess there are others), technically with no overall control. Such is the work of councils.

Of course it's different in scale but's that's neither here nor there (in terms of the damaging effects on peoples lives it's exactly the same anyway).The point is that there's no uncrossable ideological blockage between the tories or the lib-dems and this has already been demonstrated by the failure of these claimed anti-tory principles to kick in when other tory/con coalitions have not only been suggested but actually been formed and not only formed but actually proceeded to cutting local services and jobs.

And this:

Such is the work of councils.

is one of the most apolitical things i've ever seen on here.

 

[stethoscope]

Labour reject 'progressive alliance' with SNP/Plaid,

too left wing for them?

In regards to the SNP, I thought Salmond had already said that they refused to take part in any alliance with another party.

 

[butchersapron]

True.

I would say the LibDem's main priority is avoiding another general election. They'd be fucking annihilated cos it's become fairly clear what the outcome of voting for them is.

That is a very very good point.

 

[cesare]

I think their best option is as follows: Declare the currently electoral system an abomination that distorts the will of the British people. Say that FPTP has produced an absurd chaos making the formation of an effective government impossible. Say that electoral reform is the most pressng issue the country has to deal with. Agree to a temporary pact with Labour to deliver electoral form, to be dissolved upon it's completion with a promise of fresh elections afterwards.

Any votes they lost through dealing with Labour would be limited by announcing the arrangement was temporary and limited, and based only on a common appetite for electoral reform. This would be more than compensated for by achieving electoral reform and opening the door to all those people who say they'll vote Lib Dem and in the voting booth plump for the least worst of the Tories and Labour.

Plus, if he's dramatic enough about, it could make him look principled.

What about the other parties that are needed for that to be workable?

 

[butchersapron]

I think a lot of westminster types ignore local council goings on. And they just don't come onto many voters' radar - especially if it isn't happening in their area. Also, the issue of PR is not something that is under question in local councils. There may be a more real sense of feeling that a local council pact could have meaningful influence / damage limitation.

Lib-dems are utterly obsessed with how their local councillors and councils are doing - it's the whole basis of their relative success. They all know damn well what's been going on and what their tory/coalitions have been getting up to, what attacks and cuts they've imposed. They're still in the party.

For voters, i suspect the case if different. In my view their voters are 25% anti-labour tory tactical voters, 25% anti-tory labour tactical voters and 50% genuine believers in the sort of modernised meritocratic extremist neo-liberalism with a human face that the party stands for.

 

[ska invita]

Of course it's different in scale but's that's neither here nor there (in terms of the damaging effects on peoples lives it's exactly the same anyway).The point is that there's no uncrossable ideological blockage between the tories or the lib-dems and this has already been demonstrated by the failure of these claimed anti-tory principles to kick in when other tory/con coalitions have not only been suggested but actually been formed and not only formed but actually proceeded to cutting local services and jobs.

but the same argument is true of torys and labour in that there are lab/con councils. and the fact that new labour have a strategy that deliberately tries to make them be the torys makes it even more so the case

all mainstream parties are fighting for the same ground, though some are closer than others.

i said it before butchers, im not knowledgable enough about the local council cases you brought up, and im more than willing to bow to your greater knowledge on that, but its a long step from that to seeing new labour as the saviour of the situation - at national or council level. im in a safe labour seat and its the same old shit about fighting to save swimming pools and parents occupying schools in desperation.