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Why are lots of people annoyed at Nick Clegg today?

ska invita said:
but the same argument is true of torys and labour in that there are lab/con councils. and the fact that new labour have a strategy that deliberately tries to make them be the torys makes it even more so the case

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all mainstream parties are fighting for the same ground, though some are closer than others.

i said it before butchers, im not knowledgable enough about the local council cases you brought up, and im more than willing to bow to your greater knowledge on that, but its a long step from that to seeing new labour as the saviour of the situation - at national or council level. im in a safe labour safe seat and its the same old shit about fighting to save swimming pools and parents occupying schools in desperation.
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I couldn't care less about lab/tory coalitions - it doesn't effect my questions about why lib-dems haven't already left the party if they're so outraged at the suggestion of a coalition with the tories if they already are in service-cutting coalitions with them.
 
cesare said:
What about the other parties that are needed for that to be workable?
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315 between Lab and Libs: They'd carry Alliance and the SDLP pretty easily I should think which is 4 more, can't see Lucas voting such a temporary arrangement down, as some variation of PR suits the Greens quite well really. So 320 wouldn't be a problem. Whilst the SNP and PC might not actively vote for such an arrangement, I doubt they'd bring it down. Leaving the Tories and unionists 314 votes to try and stop it.
 
butchersapron said:
I couldn't care less about lab/tory coalitions - it doesn't effect my questions about why lib-dems haven't already left the party if they're so outraged at the suggestion of a coalition with the tories if they already are in service-cutting coalitions with them.
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why havent you turned on labour for engaging in conservative council coalitions? <shit, this is the least of new labours crimes.

as i said councils are a completely different thing, hence lab.con council. libs haven't made a national coalition with cons and as ive said before the only reason these talks are going ahead is political correctness. if it actually happens thats a whole nother thing and the libs will deserve all the contempt they will no doubt get - though if they secure PR as a price for it, it will have been a price worth paying (no more tory governments - woohoo!). once PR is introduced id never need to vote libdem again.
 
Lo Siento. said:
315 between Lab and Libs: They'd carry Alliance and the SDLP pretty easily I should think which is 4 more, can't see Lucas voting such a temporary arrangement down, as some variation of PR suits the Greens quite well really. So 320 wouldn't be a problem. Whilst the SNP and PC might not actively vote for such an arrangement, I doubt they'd bring it down. Leaving the Tories and unionists 314 votes to try and stop it.
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The Whips would have their work cut out.
 
A senior Welsh Liberal Democrat says his party could go into government without a deal on electoral reform.

Lord Carlile said it was naive to think there had to be an agreement on proportional representation (PR).

The ex-Montgomeryshire MP stressed he is not involved in the talks, but said while PR must be on "on the table", Lib Dems will look at the "bigger picture".
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From the BBC
 
ska invita said:
why havent you turned on labour for engaging in conservative council coalitions? <shit, this is the least of new labours crimes.

as i said councils are a completely different thing, hence lab.con council. libs haven't made a national coalition with cons and as ive said before the only reason these talks are going ahead is political correctness. if it actually happens thats a whole nother thing and the libs will deserve all the contempt they will no doubt get - though if they secure PR as a price for it, it will have been a price worth paying (no more tory governments - woohoo!). once PR is introduced id never need to vote libdem again.
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I don't support labour you prat - and i certainly don't support any serice cutting job cutting coalitions no matter who they are. It's quite noticale that the 'guilty men' are now being reduced to insinuating anyone who doesn't line up behind the lib-dems are labour supporters.

And i've said no, they're different in terms of scale but not in terms of impact on peoples lifes.

And you've never once came back on my question as to
1) why you attack suggestions of there being a lib-dem/con as impossible due to the lib-dems having nothing whatsoever in common with the tories,
2) and that a lib/lab coalition is inevitable given their substantive long running principled agreements and similarities
3) Your attacks on labour as being neo-liberal scum
4) you claim they're centre-left (centre-left neo-liberal scum?)

How many internal contradictions can your position contain before it collapses in on itself?
 
butchersapron said:
I don't support labour you prat - and i certainly don't support any serice cutting job cutting coalitions no matter who they are. It's quite noticale that the 'guilty men' are now being reduced to insinuating anyone who doesn't line up behind the lib-dems are labour supporters.

And i've said no, they're different in terms of scale but not in terms of impact on peoples lifes.

And you've never once came back on my question as to
1) why you attack suggestions of there being a lib-dem/con as impossible due to the lib-dems having nothing whatsoever in common with the tories,
2) and that a lib/lab coalition is inevitable given their substantive long running principled agreements and similarities
3) Your attacks on labour as being neo-liberal scum
4) you claim they're centre-left (centre-left neo-liberal scum?)

How many internal contradictions can your position contain before it collapses in on itself?
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Isn't that the essence of LibDemmery?
 
I love how you can't criticise the Tories and Lib Dems without accusations about Labour being thrown at you, when many of us on the left ditched Labour ages ago!
 
butchersapron said:
I don't support labour you prat - and i certainly don't support any serice cutting job cutting coalitions no matter who they are. It's quite noticale that the 'guilty men' are now being reduced to insinuating anyone who doesn't line up behind the lib-dems are labour supporters.

And i've said no, they're different in terms of scale but not in terms of impact on peoples lifes.

And you've never once came back on my question as to
1) why you attack suggestions of there being a lib-dem/con as impossible due to the lib-dems having nothing whatsoever in common with the tories,
2) and that a lib/lab coalition is inevitable given their substantive long running principled agreements and similarities
3) Your attacks on labour as being neo-liberal scum
4) you claim they're centre-left (centre-left neo-liberal scum?)

How many internal contradictions can your position contain before it collapses in on itself?
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first off, ive got say i get a lot out of posting on here - talking like this helps get the truth of things and i learn a lot, so thanks. im not arrogant enough to think im right about everything, but im exposing my thinking, and im happy enough to have it picked apart.

butchers, weve never met, ive know idea who you really support or what your position on everything is, but since this is a national election and its a three horse race, its ultimatley about one of the three or none of the above - i got the impression that you think labour are the lesser evil. i havnt heard you criticise them, though heard plenty against libs and torys.

as to impact on lives, im sure we agree - who wouldnt want to see the best services for people. as i say, im in a labour seat, cuts get made too, and i think its hard to infer too much from what happens at local level to the bigger differences at national policy level. but maybe thats something we cant agree on.

as to the numbered points i really dont get the exact question, though im sure ive answered it elsewhere. in short my position is: vote libdem to get pr so that i dont have to vote for any of the big three again. libs are most to the left of the three making it relatively not too painful to vote for them. I dont see the contradiction.

*have to go now, so if i dont answer your next post its nothing personal!
 
the button said:
I would say the LibDem's main priority is avoiding another general election. They'd be fucking annihilated cos it's become fairly clear what the outcome of voting for them is.
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Wow. Oh one with the power to see into the future: please enlighten us on how you know what the outcome is. Given that noone else seems to be able to agree on what is going to happen.

Look: I voted Lib Dem. Why? For electoral reform, pure and simple. Anything else was irrelevant, because the FPTP voting system is like a huge aortic blood clot that is slowly killing this country's heart, and without a major bypass operation, in the shape of PR or at least AV, the place is doomed.

Now, if the LibDems sell out on voting reform, then I and millions of others will never vote for them again. I suspect they know that.

So it call comes down to reform, which I think they know is exceedingly unlikely with the Tories. Give them a chance to play their hand - the cards have only just been dealt and there's a lot of bluffing going on.
 
doddles said:
Wow. Oh one with the power to see into the future: please enlighten us on how you know what the outcome is. Given that noone else seems to be able to agree on what is going to happen.

Look: I voted Lib Dem. Why? For electoral reform, pure and simple. Anything else was irrelevant, because the FPTP voting system is like a huge aortic blood clot that is slowly killing this country's heart, and without a major bypass operation, in the shape of PR or at least AV, the place is doomed.

Now, if the LibDems sell out on voting reform, then I and millions of others will never vote for them again. I suspect they know that.

So it call comes down to reform, which I think they know is exceedingly unlikely with the Tories. Give them a chance to play their hand - the cards have only just been dealt and there's a lot of bluffing going on.
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I wonder who lib dem voters would defect to *if* they did sell out on PR (which i think would be very short sighted of them) ? labour ? greens ? tories ? someone else ?
 
ska: I think one of the main points butchers was asking you to clarify is why you believe the LibDems are to the left of the other three. Because they want to scrap Trident? That doesn't make them lefties. Taking the first £10k out of tax doesn't either, when it's not coupled with higher taxes for the rich, and when it is coupled with devastating public service cuts. Because they're nice to teh gays? That doesn't make them left wing. It's pointless me listing all their policies that people might view as vaguely lefty and saying they aren't - far quicker for you to explain what it is about them that makes them the party on the left.
 
it's a tricky one - it would be better with them there rather than a straight Tory govt, but he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. if he really pushes for electoral reform this is a good thing - and fuck, if he doesn't then he is the biggest sell out ever as this was the one thing they made out that they felt really strongly about. he will lose votes if he doesn't and if he gets in with the Tories he will also lose votes. it actually isn't a perfect situation at all. BUT - why people are surprised that he is going with the party with the most votes surprises me a bit. of course he is going to do that. he's a mainstream politician who wants the power.

i hope his party talk some sense in to him either way.

the problem is that a coalition has happened before and it is highly likely that they will give them what they want and then ignore all their important policies. cameron's speech yesterday kind of gave this away too imo. it was pretty feeble re: LD policies.

clegg should bargain like mad with this. brown said he'd reform immediately and cameron really doesn't seem to be that up for it. they have to push for this otherwise clegg and his mates have got nothing whatsoever of use for them out of this election. but... i just can't see cameron going for it.
 
I'll assume this is 8 pages of various people going "I told you so!" :hmm: :rolleyes:

Nick Clegg is a reeet worm if he does form a coalition with the Tories. Could he actually get 326 seats with labour, SNP, Plaid, green and the northern irish lot? I'm presuming yes? He's an idiot for not trying hard with that like, maybe pushing for GOrdon Brown to go and have Harriet Harman (?) become glorious premier instead. He'd have his chance after that, and maybe even get PR reform, the Conservatives aren't going to give him fuck all but a condescending grin and a kick in the balls.

Even now, some cunt was being interviewed going "lots of people in the conservative party aren't happy forming a coalition or having to negotiate...." Oh well, boo bloody hoo, cry me a river, your poor little sausages. :oops:
 
Vintage Paw said:
ska: I think one of the main points butchers was asking you to clarify is why you believe the LibDems are to the left of the other three. Because they want to scrap Trident? That doesn't make them lefties. Taking the first £10k out of tax doesn't either, when it's not coupled with higher taxes for the rich, and when it is coupled with devastating public service cuts. Because they're nice to teh gays? That doesn't make them left wing. It's pointless me listing all their policies that people might view as vaguely lefty and saying they aren't - far quicker for you to explain what it is about them that makes them the party on the left.
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Left wing socially as opposed to economically perhaps?
 
Oh deary me, it seems there are a few people here who are likely to feel rather let down in the next few days.

Dont believe the hype, or should I say PRopaganda.
 
Vintage Paw said:
ska: I think one of the main points butchers was asking you to clarify is why you believe the LibDems are to the left of the other three. Because they want to scrap Trident? That doesn't make them lefties. Taking the first £10k out of tax doesn't either, when it's not coupled with higher taxes for the rich, and when it is coupled with devastating public service cuts. Because they're nice to teh gays? That doesn't make them left wing. It's pointless me listing all their policies that people might view as vaguely lefty and saying they aren't - far quicker for you to explain what it is about them that makes them the party on the left.
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I wouldn't say they're left-wing, but they are in comparison to the other parties, at least by their manifesto.

the button said:
I already know the outcome, thanks: 57 seats and a good few million wasted votes.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/default.stm

It's hardly Mystic Meg territory to surmise that people who voted LibDem off the back of Cleggmania would vote differently if there was another election soon.
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I don't know if Cleggmania can be said to account for much, really; the LibDems lost seats. If LibDem votes are wasted then pretty much all the others are too, surely? I mean, it's not like you actually think Labour or the Tories are better.
 
the button said:
I already know the outcome, thanks: 57 seats and a good few million wasted votes.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/default.stm

It's hardly Mystic Meg territory to surmise that people who voted LibDem off the back of Cleggmania would vote differently if there was another election soon.
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Want to suggest that at least part of LibDem support is still hangover from anti-Iraq anti-Blair sentiment
This is likely to remain while Labour leadership is from members of that cabinet or have been fervent apologists for it
 
yeah, saw the demo and thought for a second there might be a riot against him for supporting tories. how foolish of me
 
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