scifisam
feck! arse! girls! drink!
So I didn't really see them planning a £10,000 tax-free limit and not renewing Trident? That was just spin?
Why are lots of people annoyed at Nick Clegg today?
- Thread starter scifisam
- Start date
So I didn't really see them planning a £10,000 tax-free limit and not renewing Trident? That was just spin?
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Why what? The libdems?
Paul Russell
Psychogeographer
I don't really understand the confusion.
Clegg said he wasn't the "kingmaker" -- in terms of stating whether he would back Labour or Con in a hung parliament -- he said the people were the kingmakers -- implying that he would back whoever got the most votes/seat (troubling details in the difference between the two). And then he said clearly later that he would back whoever got the most votes/seat (troubling details in the difference between the two).
If I'd considered voting LibDem I would have looked carefully into the possibility of a vote for LibDems letting the Tories in via the LibDem-Con coalition and not voted LibDem.
In my constituency, the vote was simple: Labour vs Conservatives, LibDems nowhere, so I voted Labour to keep out the Conservatives without a second thought.
I don't see how people are slagging off Clegg for doing exactly what he said he would do.
Was is the Guardian and Indy that won it for Cameron?
Clegg said he wasn't the "kingmaker" -- in terms of stating whether he would back Labour or Con in a hung parliament -- he said the people were the kingmakers -- implying that he would back whoever got the most votes/seat (troubling details in the difference between the two). And then he said clearly later that he would back whoever got the most votes/seat (troubling details in the difference between the two).
If I'd considered voting LibDem I would have looked carefully into the possibility of a vote for LibDems letting the Tories in via the LibDem-Con coalition and not voted LibDem.
In my constituency, the vote was simple: Labour vs Conservatives, LibDems nowhere, so I voted Labour to keep out the Conservatives without a second thought.
I don't see how people are slagging off Clegg for doing exactly what he said he would do.
Was is the Guardian and Indy that won it for Cameron?
stethoscope
Well-Known Member
There seems to be a lot of concentration on whether the Lib Dems can get some sort of agreement with the Tories over PR, trident, etc. when I think they are the least of the critical issues at the moment - I've not heard much about Clegg wanting to try and find some compromises over the Tories plans to aggressively start to cut back public spending now (with all the related unemployment, 'double-dip' recession, public services hitting the poorest hardest, etc. issues it raises). Stuff that I would have thought the Lib Dems would place highly on their list of demands?
I didn't see anything about not renewing the nuclear deterrent. I did see stuff about cutting child tax credits, boosting the private healthcare sector and their tax plans being praised by Norman Tebbitt.
Vote Lib Dem to keep the Tories out/in!
elbows
Well-Known Member
Voting Lib Dem was only a barrier against Cameron if it caused the Tories to lose a load of seats, or seriously prevent them gaining any, or if Labour had somehow done well which was always unlikely due to peoples hate of Brown.
People who only watched the debates may not have realised this, but really there is nothing surprising going on today.
People who only watched the debates may not have realised this, but really there is nothing surprising going on today.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Of course it was. You've picked a perfect example - the £10 000 tax thing sounds great and very left-wing but is in actuality a tax cut for middle and higher earners. And trident, again sounds nice and liberal but actually isn't a policy not to renew in 2030 but not to commit to renew in 2030 today (whilst arming to the teeth in other weapons). Two issues they can play both sides off of dead easy.
stethoscope
Well-Known Member
Well I thought the Lib Dems were always closer to Labour's belief in this area - being careful with how public sector spending was going to be cut (i.e. much more carefully over the mid-term rather than very suddenly as the Tories would like), but now I'm increasingly unsure what priorities Clegg does have?
Augie March
blahem
Lib Dems and Tories meeting together to discuss forming a possible coalition... Ever feel like you've been cheated?
Clegg is selling out the Lib Dem vote and if a deal his struck, the cosequences for the party will be dire.
Still, who knows maybe it'll lead to the rise of the Greens as the true 'alternative' party...
Clegg is selling out the Lib Dem vote and if a deal his struck, the cosequences for the party will be dire.
Still, who knows maybe it'll lead to the rise of the Greens as the true 'alternative' party...
elbows
Well-Known Member
but now I'm increasingly unsure what priorities Clegg does have?
I'll have a guess. Salvaging something from a disappointing result. And what will be salvaged may be very different to what some people are hoping for. Principals lol.
Refused as fuck
"ethnic pakistani tosser"
stethoscope
Well-Known Member
Yeah, this basically!
just one priority tbh. power.I'm increasingly unsure what priorities Clegg does have?
Refused as fuck
"ethnic pakistani tosser"
Yeah!
Let my vote for neo-liberal capitalism against neo-liberal capitalism count for something!
free spirit
more tea vicar?
alternative viewpoint being that a party that's got 23% of the vote is actually having some influence for the first time in a long time, and that if they do end up going into coalition with either party, this will create a government that's had over 50% of the vote between them for the first time since WW2 IIRC.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Need some Prisoner quotes.
Number Six: Elections? In this place?
Number Two: Of course--we make our choice every 12 months. Every citizen has a choice. Are you going to run?
Number Six: Like blazes, the first chance I get.
Number Two: I meant run for office.
Number Six: Whose?
Number Two: Mine, for instance.
Number Six: You have a very delicate sense of humour.
Number Two: Naturally. Humour is the very essence of a democratic society.
stethoscope
Well-Known Member
No deal struck tonight between Tories and Libs according to Beeb.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
You have a point.
But in a three party system, which we seem to have now, it is most unlikely we will ever have a single party with more than 50% of the vote.
Are you saying that we should always have coalitions in the future?
free spirit
more tea vicar?
if a party get's a high enough percentage of the vote to govern alone, then fair enough.
If they don't, then they shouldn't be able to govern alone, and should have to compromise to reach agreement with other parties either in coalition, or via a minority government on an issue by issue basis.
it works fine in a lot of the worlds most successful countries, and in theory ought to help prevent the worst excesses of wannabe presidents forcing through extreme policies because they have enough of a majority to even ignore their own parties rebels.
without this, you've essentially got the biggest minority opinion able to dictate to everyone else for 5 years, which is a pretty odd version of democracy IMO.
sheothebudworths
Up the bum - no babies!!!
This.
And anyone who voted for the sort of nob that even suggested(/would blatantly do) otherwise...and then accepts it when it's done......is a fucking mug.
Pic of LIBERAL WAR please, mauvais!*
*Please, please!
weltweit
Well-Known Member
moochedit
I'm not feeding seagulls
*stops lurking for moment 
*
My take on this:
1) I think Nick is "playing hard to get" with Labour to try and force them to accept STV rather than the AV+ system they are offering.
2) If Cameron does get to be PM he won't be able to pass any bills without lib dem support and they could go for the "nuclear option" of a vote of no confidence any time they want, so he will be weak (more like the major years than the thatcher years)
*resumes lurking *
*My take on this:
1) I think Nick is "playing hard to get" with Labour to try and force them to accept STV rather than the AV+ system they are offering.
2) If Cameron does get to be PM he won't be able to pass any bills without lib dem support and they could go for the "nuclear option" of a vote of no confidence any time they want, so he will be weak (more like the major years than the thatcher years)
*resumes lurking
*
doddles
Appreciates the good eggs
Oh FFS! Nothing's happened yet! No deal has been made!
The single most important thing for the Lib Dems (and I think for the UK) is voting reform. If they sell out on that, then I'll be spitting blood. But there's not a shred of evidence at the moment that they're going to. It's inconceivable that they'd throw away the only chance they've had in decades, if not ever, to get a referendum on electoral reform.
Now - how likely are the Tories to cede to that demand? Considering that an alternate vote or PR system would effectively wipe out any chance of them governing again, very very little. So then the Lib Dems turn their backs on the Tories and strike up a deal with Labour. Job done.
Why not go immediately to Labour? Because there would be a huge backlash against them from all the people who wanted to see Labour, and especially Brown, thrown out, and because it would have gone against their pre-election statements.
Even if you think the above is wrong, until Clegg actually makes a deal with the Tories, maybe all you Labour premature ejaculators should go get a sock and lock yourselves in the bathroom FFS.
The single most important thing for the Lib Dems (and I think for the UK) is voting reform. If they sell out on that, then I'll be spitting blood. But there's not a shred of evidence at the moment that they're going to. It's inconceivable that they'd throw away the only chance they've had in decades, if not ever, to get a referendum on electoral reform.
Now - how likely are the Tories to cede to that demand? Considering that an alternate vote or PR system would effectively wipe out any chance of them governing again, very very little. So then the Lib Dems turn their backs on the Tories and strike up a deal with Labour. Job done.
Why not go immediately to Labour? Because there would be a huge backlash against them from all the people who wanted to see Labour, and especially Brown, thrown out, and because it would have gone against their pre-election statements.
Even if you think the above is wrong, until Clegg actually makes a deal with the Tories, maybe all you Labour premature ejaculators should go get a sock and lock yourselves in the bathroom FFS.
elbows
Well-Known Member
If this happens then a lot of people will leave the party. It will be a total disaster for the Lib Dems. I know loads of people who voted for the lib dems or are even members of the party who are well to the left of Labour.
Oh Nick
Its not really about Nick though is it? Its about parties being able to appear all cuddly and not having to make cruel compromises when they are nowhere near the levers of power. But when the opportunity to actually get some power arises, the naive hopes will be crushed, doesnt matter if its Mr Clegg or Gerald the inflatable love walrus thats in charge at the time.
elbows
Well-Known Member
In his shoes, or anyone else in that position, putting cynicism to one side and assuming an actual ideological position...
The dilemma is whether it is better to remain completely true to your ideals and yet remain distanced from power and so unable to bring about change towards the ideals, or whether to align with the powerful in the belief that you can achieve something and moderate their worst excesses, even if you have to compromise some of your ideals along the way.
I dont think it will be that much of a dilemma for the Lib Dems, perhaps in terms of popular support in future elections, but not ideologically, because people who thought the Lib Dems were lefty were mistaken about what exactly they stand for.
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