Who will be the next Labour leader?

[redsquirrel]

Where have I ‘written class out’? You do get a bit excited sometimes.

Maybe we are talking about different things. Wage mobility is one thing, but it seems odd to claim those decades as virtues of social mobility when so many elevated positions and professions were almost completely denied to working class people and almost all women.

Your dismissal of the 70s as a decade where "[t]here was almost no social mobility and it was repressive and violent", your instance on social mobility as cultural signifiers rather than connection to the means of production writes out class.

Study after study has shown that the social mobility that accompanied the post-war period has ground to a halt. To deny such is to place you in the same basket as neo-liberals that contend that equal of opportunity is possible with measures that do not tackle equality.

 

[chilango]

They may be different but every single piece of evidence I've seen has shown the two go in hand-in-hand.

The Great Gatsby Curve

 

[kabbes]

There’s been some spirited attempts to explain the relationship too, from both directions. One that makes sense to me is: if inequality is very high then there is too much to lose from dropping social status. Consequently, the effort that goes into entrenching status is higher, and the ladder pulled up faster. Ironically, this also leads to increased unhappiness even at the top end, because those with status are forced into activities that maintain it rather than pursuing authentic and intrinsic goals.

 

[chilango]

Also, the greater the concentration of advantage then the more incestuous its reproduction will be.

 

[chilango]

A couple of graphs from Piketty.

Note the U shape centred on the 50s-70s.

 

[treelover]

I wondered what happened to the old Etonian more-jumper-than-man fella

Renton went to Eton?

Turned out better than Johnson and Cameron though.

 

[Shechemite]

Renton went to Eton?

he doesn’t do much to hide it

 

[Mr Moose]

Your dismissal of the 70s as a decade where "[t]here was almost no social mobility and it was repressive and violent", your instance on social mobility as cultural signifiers rather than connection to the means of production writes out class.

Study after study has shown that the social mobility that accompanied the post-war period has ground to a halt. To deny such is to place you in the same basket as neo-liberals that contend that equal of opportunity is possible with measures that do not tackle equality.

Do you have a straw man target for each post? How to link each one until you can shout ‘liberal’? Just go back and count up the things that I am not saying you claim I am.

How can you possibly doubt that, whatever wage growth was, social relations were not repressive to working class people in those decades? What the trade has been is individual advancement for some against solidarity. I’ve never suggested this is a good state of affairs.

Let’s not confuse the things that were lost, with how difficult those times were or I’ll simply suspect you weren’t there.

 

[Dogsauce]

Some of it is down to self-improvement being something you have to do and fund yourself, students running up big debts to make themselves suitable for employment, rather than companies themselves investing in staff. This sort of stuff drives individualism rather than collectivism. It’s a big difference from the social mobility my dad enjoyed in the 70s, working in manufacturing and through day release and the best part of a decade at night school supported by the company gaining more or less the equivalent of an ordinary degree, and through this a skilled technical role. Now companies want employees that arrive fully-skilled. I can also relate to the nostalgia for company sports and social activities, the annual company picnic etc.

 

[belboid]

Has he? His 10 pledges talk about 'common ownership' but what is actually meant by that is pretty vaugue and could span a range of positions.

yeah, but so is everyone's. Nandy is either vague or just talks rubbish (eg about the buses not being mentioned in the manifesto when they were). And she is nominated by the most right-wing MP's. The only reason to think that she is left of Starmer is her accent.

 

[Proper Tidy]

This is how blair ended up surrounded by loads of mad old trots isn't it

 

[belboid]

did he?

 

[SpookyFrank]

Has he? His 10 pledges talk about 'common ownership' but what is actually meant by that is pretty vaugue and could span a range of positions.

Everyone gets a share.

 

[redsquirrel]

Do you have a straw man target for each post? How to link each one until you can shout ‘liberal’? Just go back and count up the things that I am not saying you claim I am.

You made the, frankly ludicrous, claim that there was "almost no social mobility" in the 70s - that is writing out class, it is a reduction of social mobility to cultural fluff rather than recognising the real existing connection to the means of production. The 70s saw labour power at a real high which is why ever since liberalism has tried to systematically undermine the power of labour with the myth of out on control unions and bodies in the street.

 

[redsquirrel]

yeah, but so is everyone's. Nandy is either vague or just talks rubbish (eg about the buses not being mentioned in the manifesto when they were). And she is nominated by the most right-wing MP's. The only reason to think that she is left of Starmer is her accent.

And her willingness to defend welfare, her voting record.
There are areas in which you can make a credible argument that Nandy is to the left of Starmer - and vice versa. They are competing for different constituencies.

 

[Shechemite]

Nandy is Positioning herself as the candidate who’ll look/reach out from the party. Is that a credible claim?

 

[Dogsauce]

Nandy is Positioning herself as the candidate who’ll look/reach out from the party. Is that a credible claim?

I think it’s fair to say she’s the most normal/human seeming out of all, and that might count for something in reaching out to others. At the same time there will be people who will find Starmer reassuring in his mildness, like what a politician should look/act like, those older more comfortable voters who don’t want anything fucking up at all. Not everyone wants ‘change’.

 

[Shechemite]

I think it’s fair to say she’s the most normal/human seeming out of all, and that might count for something in reaching out to others.

I’m more interested in what she intends to actually do

 

[Gramsci]

On nostalgia.

I grew up in Plymouth in 60s 70s. At that time the working class area I was in , the Docklands, had good jobs. It was after I left that my town became a left behind area that ended up supporting Brexit. Post War Plymouth things seemed to be improving. If slowly. This all changed 80s onwards.

My life in London has been in a largely Black working class. Second generation immigrants. They imo dont have a nostalgia for a lost past. Life for a Black working class person, whose parents /grandparents came from this country has a memory of racism. Either from the state or the existing white community.

There place in this country has never been assured. Why imo Remain vote in my area was 80% and they stuck to Labour party.

So there is a section of the working class in this country who are not nostalgic about recent past. As a Black British friend of mine said in 70s there were areas in South London where he would not go. Due to in your face racism.

Does not mean to say the community I live in have not been screwed by austierity cuts. But the relationship to Labour party is different.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Nandy is coming 3rd.

She’s the best communicator of the three by a distance. She’s also identified many of the most pressing issues.

The problem is that when she moves onto solutions there’s nothing new there. It’s a reheated mess.

 

[Shechemite]

Nandy is coming 3rd.

She’s the best communicator of the three by a distance. She’s also identified many of the most pressing issues.

The problem is that when she moves onto solutions there’s nothing new there. It’s a reheated mess.

Do going reckon she’ll get a shad cabinet position?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

On nostalgia.

I grew up in Plymouth in 60s 70s. At that time the working class area I was in , the Docklands, had good jobs. It was after I left that my town became a left behind area that ended up supporting Brexit. Post War Plymouth things seemed to be improving. If slowly.

My life in London has been in a largely Black working class. Second generation immigrants. They imo dont have a nostalgia for a lost past. Life for a Black working class person, whose parents /grandparents came from this country has a memory of racism. Either from the state or the existing white community.

There place in this country has never been assured. Why imo Remain vote in my area was 80% and they stuck to Labour party.

So there is a section of the working class in this country who are not nostalgic about recent past. As a Black British friend of mine said in 70s there were areas in South London where he would not go. Due to in your face racism.

Does not mean to say the community I live in have not been screwed by austierity cuts. But the relationship to Labour party is different.

I think it’s more complex than that in my experience.

So, for example, when I talk to black and Asian steelworkers in the West Midlands they remember the past as a period when they had good work, work that was reasonably well paid and secure and when there was a sense of momentum. But they also remember racism, workplace grade segregation (often tacitly endorsed by the union) limited solidarity and bigotry.

There is simple nostalgia that holds that the past was great and everything now is crap (although even that can have complexities as to why people think it). That doesn’t take us very far. But there is also a contingent nostalgia that remembers the past in a much more interpretative and engaged manner. When you listen properly to people remembering you often hear and learn a lot

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Do going reckon she’ll get a shad cabinet position?

All 3 candidates have already said they’ll offer Shadow Cabinet jobs to the other two I think.

 

[kebabking]

I’m more interested in what she intends to actually do

Chicken and Egg: unless Labour can (re)connect with voters, then it could have a manifesto to build a staircase to the Moon or nationalise all housing and it will matter no more than me scratching my arse.

Personally I think Nandy has the greater chance of that connection/break through, I see see RLB as being voter repellent, and while Starmer can certainly do the plausible thing, i'd put some money (but not a huge wedge) on his brexit shenanigans being toxic during a GE campaign.

 

[Gramsci]

What puts me off Keir Starmer is that in that my area Lambeth all the (New) Labour Cllrs support Starmer. And they did from very start of the election process.

I was talking to a few Labour party members last night.

I said that the New Labour Cllr want Starmer as they want their party back. The Labour party member agreed.

Im dreading it. Im involved in community bread and butter issues. Boring planning and local issues.

I really hoped the Corbyn new membership would lead to a change in how the Blairite Lambeth Council operate.

If election of Starmer leads to turning the clock back to "centre" ground I find that really depresssing.

Had a few of the local new young members supporting us on a local issue.

Against our local Cllrs.

The last three issues Ive been involved in, bread and butter issues, have pitted us against the Labour Cllrs. Its not something I enjoy. I see myself as Labour voter.

I saw what Corbyn/ McDonnell/ Momentum as breathing new life in my local area. My Labour Cllrs hated it. They want a return to top down centre politics.

A return to "sensible" centre politics will not mean linking up with community issues.

 

[lazythursday]

Clearly RLB is going to lose so it's a moot point, but I don't think there is any reason to think she's voter repellent, other than the fact that the media will hate her as the most left wing candidate. She seems fiercely competent to me, in a similar vein to Sturgeon, and I suspect views would change in a positive direction the more she was seen. Whereas I have a feeling the opposite is likely to be the case with Starmer.

 

[Shechemite]

Would those who coalesce (for want of a better term) around nandy be a good place to start for those of us who want to work with those within the LP, whilst staying well out of the party itself?

I’ve repeatedly approached by local LP on doing local work on health/social care but to no avail.

 

[Shechemite]

Clearly RLB is going to lose so it's a moot point, but I don't think there is any reason to think she's voter repellent, other than the fact that the media will hate her as the most left wing candidate. She seems fiercely competent to me, in a similar vein to Sturgeon, and I suspect views would change in a positive direction the more she was seen. Whereas I have a feeling the opposite is likely to be the case with Starmer.

Whatever the personal appeal/qualities of RLB, she’s a beacon for the nutters.

 

[brogdale]

I’ve repeatedly approached by local LP on doing local work on health/social care but to no avail.

That's interesting.
When you say 'doing local work on health/social care' do you mean in an advisory/consultancy sort of way?
Did they actually turn down your offer or just not respond?

 

[lazythursday]

Whatever the personal appeal/qualities of RLB, she’s a beacon for the nutters.

I think that's a bit unfair. Those people were always going to back the candidate perceived as the most left wing. That doesn't mean they're the bulk of her support, and I'd have hope she might have better political courage to face them down than Corbyn did. We have to tack to the right because of some fringe elements? Very depressing if that's the case.