Who will be the next Labour leader?

[Steel Icarus]

I would extend that thought to being a paradigm of modern consumerist individualism generally, not just relevant to socialism. People think they are in control of their identity, and that there is some kind of inherent true self that can be discovered if they chip away at the stone that surrounds it. This self sits protected from any social circumstances, relationships, actions or context, inviolable to change. So we get identity being primary over all, more important than any kind of structural or systemic analysis. It doesn’t matter what you do or how you relate to the system, it only matters what you feel on the inside.

The problem with this is not only that it leads to poor politics and social atomisation. It also leads to poor mental health. The level of conflict people feel between their lived reality and this identity they know exists on the inside creates serious distress. And the existential guilt that is created by fearing the true identity remains unrealised becomes a crippling anxiety. Authentic feeling is replaced a kind of sincerity to the imagined synthetic creation. The evidence of this is in the horrendous and growing levels of medicalised distress we see all around us.

Excellent post, rang a lot of bells. Thank you kabbes

 

[Proper Tidy]

As it happens, you only get waitrose at service stations in the south. Think they've got one at a services near Stoke but never seen one further north that that.

 

[brogdale]

As it happens, you only get waitrose at service stations in the south. Think they've got one at a services near Stoke but never seen one further north that that.

Yer missing nothing since they they got mean & arsey with the reductions. I only bottom-feed from M&S now.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Yer missing nothing since they they got mean & arsey with the reductions. I only bottom-feed from M&S now.

I only ever used waitrose in that brief glorious period where you could get free no strings coffee

 

[SpookyFrank]

I would extend that thought to being a paradigm of modern consumerist individualism generally, not just relevant to socialism. People think they are in control of their identity, and that there is some kind of inherent true self that can be discovered if they chip away at the stone that surrounds it. This self sits protected from any social circumstances, relationships, actions or context, inviolable to change. So we get identity being primary over all, more important than any kind of structural or systemic analysis. It doesn’t matter what you do or how you relate to the system, it only matters what you feel on the inside.

The problem with this is not only that it leads to poor politics and social atomisation. It also leads to poor mental health. The level of conflict people feel between their lived reality and this identity they know exists on the inside creates serious distress. And the existential guilt that is created by fearing the true identity remains unrealised becomes a crippling anxiety. Authentic feeling is replaced a kind of sincerity to the imagined synthetic creation. The evidence of this is in the horrendous and growing levels of medicalised distress we see all around us.

Anyway, sorry to digress from the riveting three-way failurefest that is the Labour Party leadership race. But, you know, sometimes the mind wanders.

Whilst I agree with a lot of this, I don't believe the notion of an immutable self is the only cause of the soaring levels of anxiety and mental ill health we see. It's probably not what you're actually saying, but this idea of psychic distress being a failure of the self to adapt to society is very much an individualist one, and one which lets society (or the power brokers thereof) off the hook for all sorts of cruelty.

 

[brogdale]

I only ever used waitrose in that brief glorious period where you could get free no strings coffee

Depending on the store, that's still a runner...if you just rock up with your own cup and ignore any staff...they just let you crack on; why wouldn't they? Mind you at the Barbican store they've got those shitty little card reader things; bastards.

 

[kabbes]

Whilst I agree with a lot of this, I don't believe the notion of an immutable self is the only cause of the soaring levels of anxiety and mental ill health we see. It's probably not what you're actually saying, but this idea of psychic distress being a failure of the self to adapt to society is very much an individualist one, and one which lets society (or the power brokers thereof) off the hook for all sorts of cruelty.

Well quite — I’m saying the exact opposite. I’m saying that we are a function of our environment (social and otherwise) and that the boundary between the self and others is actually fuzzy at best. I’m saying that this means a focus on “discovering” one’s self-identity rather than understanding how it is constantly constructed and reconstructed is a problem. I’m certainly not saying the problem will be solved by even more individual self-determination!

 

[Idris2002]

I am appalled and angry about Nandy's comments on housing a convicted male rapist in a woman's prison. Not only would it put female prisoners at risk of serious harm, it is a free gift to all the party's enemies.

Lisa Nandy says child rapists should be in women’s prisons

Julia Long questions Labour leadership hopeful, Lisa Nandy, on sex self ID.

t.co

 

[The39thStep]

I am appalled and angry about Nandy's comments on housing a convicted male rapist in a woman's prison. Not only would it put female prisoners at risk of serious harm, it is a free gift to all the party's enemies.

Lisa Nandy says child rapists should be in women’s prisons

Julia Long questions Labour leadership hopeful, Lisa Nandy, on sex self ID.

t.co

Key policy in trying to win back working class voters?

 

[Idris2002]

Key policy in trying to win back working class voters?

Always with the dark sarcasm in the classroom, eh Step?

 

[The39thStep]

Always with the dark sarcasm in the classroom, eh Step?

Muttering from the back Idris

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I am appalled and angry about Nandy's comments on housing a convicted male rapist in a woman's prison. Not only would it put female prisoners at risk of serious harm, it is a free gift to all the party's enemies.

Lisa Nandy says child rapists should be in women’s prisons

Julia Long questions Labour leadership hopeful, Lisa Nandy, on sex self ID.

t.co

To be fair to her she clarified her position much better on the C4 debate last night. But, Nandy, Labour and much of the left generally is caught on the horns of an indentarian dilemma on this issue. As Steps suggests the weight given to the issue - it got more time, at the behest of the audience it must be said, than the NHS, Education, poverty and crime combined - is significant

 

[Idris2002]

To be fair to her she clarified her position much better on the C4 debate last night. But, Nandy, Labour and much of the left generally is caught on the horns of an indentarian dilemma on this issue. As Steps suggests the weight given to the issue - it got more time, at the behest of the audience it must be said, than the NHS, Education, poverty and crime combined - is significant

I want to see her reverse her position, not "clarify" it.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Talking of significant, major issues of our time, why did nobody mention the environment?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Talking of significant, major issues of our time, why did nobody mention the environment?

To be fair the format was garbage. The audience Q8A format is shite. A circular debate on the same issues - Brexit, Corbyn, the manifesto, identity politics - and the same answers is taking us nowhere. The entire labour leader debate is crying out for detailed and forensic questions to each of the candidates. You are right though - an hour long debate and not a word on the environment was uttered

 

[Athos]

And as far as I can tell most women are supportive of trans people and most men aren't.

I think most people are broadly supportive of trans people insofar as respecting their right to live as they please (with the only caveat being where that might impinge on others' rights). But I think most people don't believe that trans women are literally women, even if they are willing to treat them as if they are for most purposes. But that men are more willing to say they don't consider trans women to literally be women, as women have been socialised to please, and to defer to the opinions of others.

 

[Pickman's model]

I am appalled and angry about Nandy's comments on housing a convicted male rapist in a woman's prison. Not only would it put female prisoners at risk of serious harm, it is a free gift to all the party's enemies.

Lisa Nandy says child rapists should be in women’s prisons

Julia Long questions Labour leadership hopeful, Lisa Nandy, on sex self ID.

t.co

1) women prisoners already at risk of serious harm, it's not like women's prisons are safe places anyway
2) this is an issue created by the conservative party and tbh it's perhaps the best thing they've ever come up with to divide people on 'the left'

 

[kebabking]

I think most people are broadly supportive of trans people insofar as respecting their right to live as they please (with the only caveat being where that might impinge on others' rights). But I think most people don't believe that trans women are literally women, even if they are willing to treat them as if they were for most purposes. But that men are more willing to say so, as women have been socialised to please, and to defer to the opinions of others.

In much more practical terms, trans issues simply don't effect men in the way they effect women: if I'm in a public toilet or changing room at the lesiure centre and some 5'2", slightly feminine looking bloke calling themselves Garry walks in its of no interest or concern to me, simply because that person is no physical threat to me - however, if a 5'6" woman is in a public toilet or changing room at the lesiure centre and someone 6'5" with a girl dick walks in, then that person would very definitely be a potential threat, regardless of what their name is or how they claim to identify.

Personally I'm utterly indifferent, but very few of the women I know well are - not one of them believes the Transwomen are women dogma, they just have no intention of getting trolled on twitter by saying so....

 

[SpookyFrank]

I am appalled and angry about Nandy's comments on housing a convicted male rapist in a woman's prison. Not only would it put female prisoners at risk of serious harm, it is a free gift to all the party's enemies.

Lisa Nandy says child rapists should be in women’s prisons

Julia Long questions Labour leadership hopeful, Lisa Nandy, on sex self ID.

t.co

Some of the most shameless TERF tubthumping I've seen there. The final question is utterly shameless, how can I make the rape of children into something that gets me off the hook for defending my own shitty opinions? Eugh.

 

[Idris2002]

The fact that SpookyFrank has to resort to a contemptible misrepresentation of Julia Long's question is a sign that he knows how weak his own position is.

 

[Idris2002]

1) women prisoners already at risk of serious harm, it's not like women's prisons are safe places anyway
2) this is an issue created by the conservative party and tbh it's perhaps the best thing they've ever come up with to divide people on 'the left'

Women prisoners should not be at risk from the particular dangers inherent in sharing space with a person who remains a biological male, anatomically intact, with a record as a violent and repeated rapist.

 

[SpookyFrank]

The fact that SpookyFrank has to resort to a contemptible misrepresentation of Julia Long's question is a sign that he knows how weak his own position is.

This 'growing number' she refers to, has it by any chance grown from zero to one?

 

[SpookyFrank]

Women prisoners should not be at risk from the particular dangers inherent in sharing space with a person who remains a biological male, anatomically intact, with a record as a violent and repeated rapist.

Yes, clearly. And that's what makes it such a great straw man. Trouble is nobody on the planet seems to hold the contrary position, despite repeated insinuations that they do.

Do you believe transwomen should be left at the mercy of male rapists in a men's prison? No, I don't think for a second that you do. So, having a shred of decency, I wouldn't accuse you of believing anything of the sort.

 

[kabbes]

Please, everyone, does this Labour leader thread really need to be the next trans battleground? Do we not have enough of those already?

 

[sleaterkinney]

I can't see any of the people in this contest winning an election
therefore may as well vote for the one that keeps the political direction on track

Yeah, why change it now?.

 

[Proper Tidy]

In much more practical terms, trans issues simply don't effect men in the way they effect women: if I'm in a public toilet or changing room at the lesiure centre and some 5'2", slightly feminine looking bloke calling themselves Garry walks in its of no interest or concern to me, simply because that person is no physical threat to me - however, if a 5'6" woman is in a public toilet or changing room at the lesiure centre and someone 6'5" with a girl dick walks in, then that person would very definitely be a potential threat, regardless of what their name is or how they claim to identify.

Personally I'm utterly indifferent, but very few of the women I know well are - not one of them believes the Transwomen are women dogma, they just have no intention of getting trolled on twitter by saying so....

No idea if it's true but the point jennastan made was that women are largely supportive while men less so, not other way around.

 

[Wilf]

Here, in all it’s glory, is why Starmer is unfit to lead the Labour Party, or even be in the shadow cabinet:

Labour leadership contest: Keir Starmer defends Brexit policy

Favourite to succeed Jeremy Corbyn says party was right and should have gone further

www.theguardian.com

Starmer couldn’t be any more clear. The problem isn’t him, the policy or the politics that led to Labour to end up with a slow motion car crash policy on Brexit. Given this is the case it is clear that for him the blame must be placed firmly at the door of the electorate.

That Sir Kier is the political representative of the new most dangerous class - the Waitrose narrating class cabal - couldn’t be clearer. That it’s ideas are embedded within his campaign is now clear. Those ideas are increasingly anti-democratic and the Brechtian delivery of them is highly disturbing

In passing, I've noticed - in this piece and others - that the guardian have stopped referring to him as 'Sir'. Though, TBF, his name hasn't yet shrunk as much as that of The Right Honourable Lord Stansgate, Anthony Neil Wedgewood Benn.

 

[oryx]

Please, everyone, does this Labour leader thread really need to be the next trans battleground? Do we not have enough of those already?

You've said exactly what I was going to say.

 

[Wilf]

As it happens, you only get waitrose at service stations in the south. Think they've got one at a services near Stoke but never seen one further north that that.

The new social democracy will rise from a full tank, a Gregg's vegan sausage roll and some barbeque briquettes.

 

[Wilf]

You've said exactly what I was going to say.

Agreed, though it is interesting that the issue has become so prominent in the Labour election, as it seems to be elsewhere on the 'left'. I was at a small local meeting* a couple of days ago - won't say where/what as the speaker is quite well known and I'd be betraying confidences. The discussion was on local organising though, somehow, the discussion turned to 'trans v terf'. Within, literally, 2 minutes, people who hadn't met each other before were threatening to walk out if a particular line on self ID was repeated. Depressing.

Edit - * not actually an LP meeting.