Who will be the next Labour leader?

[SpackleFrog]

We’ll just get into another argument about electability. Surely the last election gives you some pause for thought.

But not you. Fascinating.

And of course live it first. The Labour Party could help people from the off without even being elected if it chooses to invest in communities.

Invest. Fascinating.

 

[Mr Moose]

Butchers post 1344 provides the answer to the question. I'm just making the point that the LP you seem to want is not a socialist party (unless you take Morrison line).

I don't disagree. I don't believe it's even close to an overnight sell. For that reason you are right to prioritise actual doing over electoral politics. But purely for electoral politics it has to be electable. That can still change lives fundamentally.

I don't understand the vision of post Brexit Britain, with respect to its trading and industry that you can sell as purely socialist. The voters are hyped to expect trade deals and cheap goods from far away. That is going to take a colossal untangling. Other measures, like nationalised railways or a national care service are easy sells.

 

[SpackleFrog]

I don't understand the vision of post Brexit Britain, with respect to its trading and industry that you can sell as purely socialist. The voters are hyped to expect trade deals and cheap goods from far away. That is going to take a colossal untangling.

Are the voters hyped to extract trade deals and cheap goods from far away? What evidence do you have for this?

 

[Mr Moose]

Until what happened is agreed on - and we won't because it means accepting that the switch to remain took 50 seats off labour and so the people supporting that shouldn't ever be listened to again - then there's no point. 2019 should be your wake up call, we were right, not you - you are going to kill what's left of that party. PASOK - look 'em up.

I am quite astonished that this is still going on and i don't think i want to do this again. It is 100% clear as day.

I think you are creating an hysterical orthodoxy. It's like Labour's post EU election nosedive never happened. Labour was in danger of becoming the third party. Brexit was always going to defeat it, it just had to choose in which way.

You can argue that it may have lost less seats, but its not an argument that it would have won. It had one thing it could change in order to win and that was its leadership. You rejected that, same way Ed couldn't be moved, that was plotting, same way Brexit wasn't going to lead to Johnson. We all have 'ifs'.

You can carry on fighting Brexit for the next five years, but it's over for now.

 

[redsquirrel]

Sorry I'm totally confused.
You "don't disagree" that the LP you want is not socialist?

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

It should all be so simple. If you believe in this parliamentary democracy stuff you get together with others who basically agree with you and stand for what you believe in. But now you have to try and guess 5 years in advance what will be the topic of the day in 2025, who will be the best PR person to present your product to the electorate, investigate all their dark secrets which might make them toxic to the people of the UK, prophesy unto yourself what bollocks the media might invent in the meantime, survey the entire population to check that your hunches might be even vaguely accurate, etc etc, by which time you’ve forgotten why you started the whole process in the first place. Or am I missing something?

 

[butchersapron]

I think you are creating an hysterical orthodoxy. It's like Labour's post EU election nosedive never happened. Labour was in danger of becoming the third party. Brexit was always going to defeat it, it just had to choose in which way.

You can argue that it may have lost less seats, but its not an argument that it would have won. It had one thing it could change in order to win and that was its leadership. You rejected that, same way Ed couldn't be moved, that was plotting, same way Brexit wasn't going to lead to Johnson. We all have 'ifs'.

You can carry on fighting Brexit for the next five years, but it's over for now.

It's over because people like you engineered over 3 years a situation where labour loses by supporting and entrenching a remain position. If we can't agree on the map then how can we agree where to go? What would 50 seats more to labour and less to tory have done btw? Just a little thing, a trinket, bauble, or changed everything?

 

[Mr Moose]

Are the voters hyped to extract trade deals and cheap goods from far away? What evidence do you have for this?

Yes many are. What on Earth is it you think many voters want Brexit to deliver? We've heard it endlessly on vox pops and question time, get on, be our own country out there in the world, make trade deals etc.

Do you not believe them? What is it you think they really want?

 

[Mr Moose]

It's over because people like you engineered over 3 years a situation where labour loses by supporting and entrenching a remain position. If we can't agree on the map then how can we agree where to go? What would 50 seats more to labour and less to tory have done btw? Just a little thing, a trinket, bauble, or changed everything?

But it would lost others. It would probalby have split in two before the election anyway. How would you have taken it out of that 2018 nosedive?

 

[butchersapron]

It should all be so simple. If you believe in this parliamentary democracy stuff you get together with others who basically agree with you and stand for what you believe in. But now you have to try and guess 5 years in advance what will be the topic of the day in 2025, who will be the best PR person to present your product to the electorate, investigate all their dark secrets which might make them toxic to the people of the UK, prophesy unto yourself what bollocks the media might invent in the meantime, survey the entire population to check that your hunches might be even vaguely accurate, etc etc, by which time you’ve forgotten why you started the whole process in the first place. Or am I missing something?

I must say, the anarchists are amongst the worst contributors to this thread - the mirror image of drongos like sleater, just wishing something else up from their imagination just from the other side.

 

[butchersapron]

But it would lost others. It would probalby have split in two before the election anyway. How would you have taken it out of that 2018 nosedive?

No it wouldn't. No seat would have been lost to the tories. Not a single one.

There was no nosedive before the PIVOT TO REMAIN. So, don't do that.

 

[redsquirrel]

Labour was in danger of becoming the third party.

This is total nonsense. Never going to happen.
It didn't happen in 2010, it was not going happen in 2019.

EDIT: The fact that Labour was able to hold Sheffield Hallam, a seat the LDs should have won, just underlines how weak the supposed threat from the yellow wankers was.

 

[butchersapron]

50 seats lost. It is not going in. 50 seats lost. 50 seats lost. Why is it not going in? Because the approach these people supported led to it. If there is ever a lesson that these people want to destroy that party this is it.

 

[butchersapron]

I want to destroy the party but from the left with a collectively constituted social movement prepared to take over its functions and go beyond them, not with this...shit.

 

[planetgeli]

Labour was in danger of becoming the third party.

Fuck's sake. Pay the server fund £10.

 

[Mr Moose]

50 seats lost. It is not going in. 50 seats lost. 50 seats lost. Why is it not going in? Because the approach these people supported led to it. If there is ever a lesson that these people want to destroy that party this is it.

You are not listening. But it's pointless, that's over.

 

[Proper Tidy]

I shouldn't be but I am actually amazed by the huge swathes, not just a few headbangers, who are taking view that labour wasn't remain enough. Completely mental but reckon there is a majority of labour types who think this way. Ah well cheerio.

 

[butchersapron]

You are not listening. But it's pointless, that's over.

Why and how it happened is not pointless - it's central.

 

[Mr Moose]

This is total nonsense. Never going to happen.
It didn't happen in 2010, it was not going happen in 2019.

EDIT: The fact that Labour was able to hold Sheffield Hallam, a seat the LDs should have won, just underlines how weak the supposed threat from the yellow wankers was.

Yes, because it neutralised it by becoming more remain. Third party in seats, no, but vote share tumbled.

Like I say, pointless.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Yes many are. What on Earth is it you think many voters want Brexit to deliver? We've heard it endlessly on vox pops and question time, get on, be our own country out there in the world, make trade deals etc.

Do you not believe them? What is it you think they really want?

They're not talking about trade deals and cheap goods mate.

 

[butchersapron]

I shouldn't be but I am actually amazed by the huge swathes, not just a few headbangers, who are taking view that labour wasn't remain enough. Completely mental but reckon there is a majority of labour types who think this way. Ah well cheerio.

We always said there was reckoning to come between 1) the people who joined the party for corbyn and 2) when the weight of those people impacted on trad labour voters. It happened, and it happened in the worst way possible. In the most electorally efficient way with longer term consequences - a new reliance on nothing consumer choice voters in change seats vs....

 

[redsquirrel]

I shouldn't be but I am actually amazed by the huge swathes, not just a few headbangers, who are taking view that labour wasn't remain enough. Completely mental but reckon there is a majority of labour types who think this way. Ah well cheerio.

Genuinely deluded, like Moose's above post.

 

[Mr Moose]

Fuck's sake. Pay the server fund £10.

Pay it yourself for fucks sake. There's no forfeit for disagreeing.

 

[redsquirrel]

I shouldn't be but I am actually amazed by the huge swathes, not just a few headbangers, who are taking view that labour wasn't remain enough. Completely mental but reckon there is a majority of labour types who think this way. Ah well cheerio.

What's crazy is that some of us were pointing out the danger of Labour's move to Remain for ages, that it was in danger of costing them traditional Labour seats. That's exactly what did happen and yet it is still us that are wrong and them that were right.

 

[Mr Moose]

Genuinely deluded, like Moose's above post.

I'm not saying it needed to be more Remain. I'm saying it wasn't going to square that argument successfully.

Clearly that is the orthodoxy and there is no point me arguing it. So I'm now going to enjoy my evening and hope you do too.

 

[planetgeli]

Pay it yourself for fucks sake. There's no forfeit for disagreeing.

Yeah, you probably missed the reference. Around that time you were thinking Labour were in danger of being the third party, I bet anyone on this thread (Wilf took me up on it - and paid) that this was bollocks.

Nothing you've said suggests to me you have a great idea of electoral politics. Which is a shame for someone who apparently invests so much in electoral politics.

Just pay.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I must say, the anarchists are amongst the worst contributors to this thread - the mirror image of drongos like sleater, just wishing something else up from their imagination just from the other side.

I was just pointing out that the Labour Party electoral game seems to be wholly about electability, as if anyone has the slightest idea what that means now, next year or in 5 years time. And the content of any message to ‘the people’, or anyone else, is unimportant by comparison. I would have hoped that that would matter just a little bit more than it would appear to. (Is the mirror image of drongos sognord?)

 

[Gramsci]

Agree with most of that but I'd say it was generally a case of not voting rather than voting Tory, although some did switch.

Definitely even Remain voters in many areas of the country preferred the 'get Brexit done' line to 'years more of this'.

Feeling at work was sick of Brexit, let the Northerners have what they want and if it goes wrong not our fault.

From what Ive seen so far the issue of Brexit has been avoided so far in the leadership contest.

I would like to see a candidate who will recognise the working class are spilt on Brexit.

Inner London was and is Remain. Brexit is resented. Labour vote held up. Personally I supported the policy of having a conformitary referendum. I thought this was good compromise between working class areas like mine in inner London ( Remain) and working class areas in the North.

( to be borne in mind a Council ward like mine In inner London contains a lot of people who aren't "British" so can't vote at national elections or the EU referendum. So in my area Im quite privileged. I bear this in mind when voting. None of my EU friends from other EU countries saw UK leaving EU as a positive. The opposite in fact.)

I would like to see a candidate deal with the issue of the this division. So far I don't see it.

Brexit has caused and will continue to cause divisions imo.

 

[butchersapron]

I was just pointing out that the Labour Party electoral game seems to be wholly about electability, as if anyone has the slightest idea what that means now, next year or in 5 years time. And the content of any message to ‘the people’, or anyone else, is unimportant by comparison. I would have hoped that that would matter just a little bit more than it would appear to. (Is the mirror image of drongos sognord?)

Of course their game is about electability - it's built in. What people are talking about is the forms this may take (and if they've any sense, how this might feed into or be fed by a wider movement). That ability to tap into and talk about and from people issues should be anarchists bread and butter too. Not just saying elections are shit and anarchism is great, People, you know. Real people.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Of course their game is about electability - it's built in. What people are talking about is the forms this may take (and if they've any sense, how this might feed into or be fed by a wider movement). That ability to tap into and talk about and from people issues should be anarchists bread and butter too. Not just saying elections are shit and anarchism is great, People, you know. Real people.

Yeah, but people have lost sight of all that they believe in, JC pretending to watch the Queen on Xmas day, candidates saying they’d press the button in imaginary unspecified circumstances. Real people can smell rats too.