Who will be the next Labour leader?

[Mr Moose]

Wanna bet? Jess Phillips already is.

No one is going to listen to her. Or at least no one important in this game.

 

[SpackleFrog]

There's quite a lot in it about funding local councils. Starting with the very first line of the Communities and Local Government section, Labour will reverse the Tory decade of austerity for local government and aim to restore council spending powers to 2010 levels over the lifetime of the Parliament.

Fair, have to say I didn't read it. Do you think this was adequately communicated?

 

[treelover]

Anyone is going to get that tbf. They can't be picking a leader on the basis of 'who won't the right wing press attack' as that person doesn't exist.

Lisa Nandy would be a bit harder to attack.

 

[killer b]

Fair, have to say I didn't read it. Do you think this was adequately communicated?

I dunno. It certainly wasn't adequately reported though.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Yeah, but is that Real Labour voters or fake labour voters?

 

[sleaterkinney]

No-one will go full rejoin until they see how it pans out.

 

[The39thStep]

What were they before? It has time to develop new ones.

But it’s down to the Tories right now and their feet should be held to the fire over it.

Completely agree with holding the Tories to account and a large test will be around the North West and North East and the promises of ' powerhouses' and more control locally . However holding to account without articulating what Labour has to offer in those areas are two different things. Many of the places that went to the Tories are unlikely to directly benefit from ' powerhouse' strategies in any case, cities might but towns only indirectly.

 

[The39thStep]

According to the British Election Study, 68% of Labour voters supported remain in the 2016 referendum.

Take the large cities out and you have a different picture

 

[Mr Moose]

Lisa Nandy would be a bit harder to attack.

Yes, though you can attack anyone if they are pulling one way and the Party is pulling another. Whether Nandy, Starmer or RLB they collectively have to at some point decide what Labour’s view (of the future post Brexit arrangements) will be going forward. They can all then rally round it however they fought in the war.

 

[Mr Moose]

Completely agree with holding the Tories to account and a large test will be around the North West and North East and the promises of ' powerhouses' and more control locally . However holding to account without articulating what Labour has to offer in those areas are two different things. Many of the places that went to the Tories are unlikely to directly benefit from ' powerhouse' strategies in any case, cities might but towns only indirectly.

And that also goes beyond a lumpen notion that it’s all the EU when Amazon has every small town retailer and trader by the bollocks and Britain’s housing is a fire sale for the world’s wealthiest.

 

[SpackleFrog]

And that also goes beyond a lumpen notion that it’s all the EU when Amazon has every small town retailer and trader by the bollocks and Britain is a fire sale for the world’s wealthiest.

Who said it was all the EU?

 

[killer b]

Completely agree with holding the Tories to account and a large test will be around the North West and North East and the promises of ' powerhouses' and more control locally . However holding to account without articulating what Labour has to offer in those areas are two different things. Many of the places that went to the Tories are unlikely to directly benefit from ' powerhouse' strategies in any case, cities might but towns only indirectly.

I was reading somewhere yesterday that loads of towns in the south have suffered a similar local downturn to towns in the north, but because the slack has been taken up by commuting to london no-one had noticed. The main tory idea I've seen is to improve transport infrastructure from depressed towns to 'where the jobs are' - ie metropolitan city areas - and do the same thing up here. Don't think it'll really cut it.

 

[andysays]

Take the large cities out and you have a different picture

Why would you simply "take the large cities out"?

Having read that article briefly, I'm still no clearer as to when these 68% of Labour voters who reportedly voted to remain actually voted for Labour, but your comment makes no sense, unless you can actually explain why Labour voters in large cities are to be "taken out"

 

[The39thStep]

Why would you simply "take the large cities out"?

Having read that article briefly, I'm still no clearer as to when these 68% of Labour voters who reportedly voted to remain actually voted for Labour, but your comment makes no sense, unless you can actually explain why Labour voters in large cities are to be "taken out"

Just musing on what the labour remain vote would be if that was the case.

 

[Mr Moose]

Who said it was all the EU?

I’m implying it from the notion that whether someone is a Remainer (if that’s a useful term anymore) or not is the defining principle for who can lead the Party.

 

[andysays]

Just musing on what the labour remain vote would be if that was the case.

Funnily enough, I was just musing on what it would look like if we took out everyone born on a Tuesday

 

[SpackleFrog]

I’m implying it from the notion that whether someone is a Remainer (if that’s a useful term anymore) or not is the defining principle for who can lead the Party.

That's not an implication so much as a stretch.

No one is saying every problem that exists in towns is purely attributable to the EU. What people are saying is that the architect of Labour's disastrous second referendum position is not going to help the Labour Party now.

See, you say this:

I really doubt that is going to be the message going forward. It may be ‘you should have made a deal that protected jobs etc’ but unless the whole shebang has gone utterly tits up no one is going to seek to refight the referendum.

But actually, you're position has been refighting the referendum since the referendum and you're continuing to do that. You say Starmer doesn't want to refight the referendum but you're favourably disposed to him because that is exactly what he will do if and when he circumstances allow him to do so.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

This is presumably what Starmer is counting on - that the UK will be even more immiserated post Brexit than it was to start with, and everyone will suddenly realise they voted the wrong way after all. Then he will triumphantly declare "I told you so!" and be swept to power on a wave of popular support.

I wonder how that strategy will work out for him.

Yeah, tbh Labour need a different calibre of leader to ingratiate themselves with the public. If only they had an adulterous Bullingdon club posh boy who got sacked as journalist for making up quotes, got sacked from the cabinet for lying, was unanimously found to have lied to the Queen by 11 supreme court justices, got a British citizen banged up in Iran because he couldn't be bothered to read his briefings, had a long history of open bigotry towards women, gay people, muslims and working class people. Only then will the very discerning and super smart British public think, 'finally, a labour PM fit to run the country'.

 

[DJWrongspeed]

It's the 5 years time bit that makes me not bothered too much about this. I'd bet on another leadership election b4 then.

 

[Mr Moose]

That's not an implication so much as a stretch.

No one is saying every problem that exists in towns is purely attributable to the EU. What people are saying is that the architect of Labour's disastrous second referendum position is not going to help the Labour Party now.

See, you say this:



But actually, you're position has been refighting the referendum since the referendum and you're continuing to do that. You say Starmer doesn't want to refight the referendum but you're favourably disposed to him because that is exactly what he will do if and when he circumstances allow him to do so.

It was but I’m not now. The result was politically unresolved before. Now it most certainly is. We will be well out of the EU and onto a new arrangement before Labour has to even consider its next campaign strategy.

At this point whether the leader was a Remainer or Leaver makes zero odds. In fact they were all Remainers and even Nandy would only have been arguing for a very close relationship with the EU, a BRINO. What they will have to do is articulate the UK’s post Brexit positions and possibilities. None of them are near that and none of what any of them have said before particularly matters. It’s a blank page. The leader should be chosen from who can best help create and present the socialist vision that should go on it.

 

[butchersapron]

Yeah, tbh Labour need a different calibre of leader to ingratiate themselves with the public. If only they had an adulterous Bullingdon club posh boy who got sacked as journalist for making up quotes, got sacked from the cabinet for lying, was unanimously found to have lied to the Queen by 11 supreme court justices, got a British citizen banged up in Iran because he couldn't be bothered to read his briefings, had a long history of open bigotry towards women, gay people, muslims and working class people. Only then will the very discerning and super smart British public think, 'finally, a labour PM fit to run the country'.

Adultery and having lied to the queen? These are really on the charge sheet?

 

[redsquirrel]

The leader should be chosen from who can best help create and present the socialist vision that should go on it.

And which candidate is that, considering that at most only one of them might be reasonably called a socialist?

The argument that the LP needs to be "credible" (i.e. liberal-left) to be elected and should therefore move rightwards is one thing, but to pretend that one supports a "socialist vision" while making such an argument is absurd.

 

[SpackleFrog]

It was but I’m not now. The result was politically unresolved before. Now it most certainly is.

It was resolved before, but you refused to understand this.

We will be well out of the EU and onto a new arrangement before Labour has to even consider its next campaign strategy.

Wrong again. Tory Brexit won't satisfy anyone and Labour urgently needs a vision of what the UK should look like outside the EU now. You've had 4 years to develop a position on this, you still don't have one and guess what you still need one.

At this point whether the leader was a Remainer or Leaver makes zero odds. In fact they were all Remainers

Wrong again. Those who refused to countenance leaving the supra state are no use.

Just to be clear - people like you are of no practical use.

 

[butchersapron]

You can't argue that a socialist vision is needed and is also unelectable. You need to demonstrate how that socialist vision relates to real life and so becomes necessary in peoples common sense. A leader presenting it is not the point - a wider movement actually living it is. I don't think the labour party can ever do that but you at least have to come to this right.

 

[Mr Moose]

It was resolved before, but you refused to understand this.



Wrong again. Tory Brexit won't satisfy anyone and Labour urgently needs a vision of what the UK should look like outside the EU now. You've had 4 years to develop a position on this, you still don't have one and guess what you still need one.



Wrong again. Those who refused to countenance leaving the supra state are no use.

Just to be clear - people like you are of no practical use.

You are wrong on lots of levels, but what ‘practical’ use are you btw?

 

[Mr Moose]

You can't argue that a socialist vision is needed and is also unelectable. You need to demonstrate how that socialist vision relates to real life and so becomes necessary in peoples common sense. A leader presenting it is not the point - a wider movement actually living it is. I don't think the labour party can ever do that but you at least have to come to this right.

I’m not saying it’s always unelectable. But that it was under Corbyn was obvious months back.

We’ll just get into another argument about electability. Surely the last election gives you some pause for thought.

And of course live it first. The Labour Party could help people from the off without even being elected if it chooses to invest in communities.

 

[Mr Moose]

And which candidate is that, considering that at most only one of them might be reasonably called a socialist?

The argument that the LP needs to be "credible" (i.e. liberal-left) to be elected and should therefore move rightwards is one thing, but to pretend that one supports a "socialist vision" while making such an argument is absurd.

There is obviously a sweet spot. I’m not sure what on Earth you could possibly hope for electorally (I appreciate you don’t care much for it) without looking for that. What is the target small town voter telling you about socialism?

 

[butchersapron]

I’m not saying it’s always unelectable. But that it was under Corbyn was obvious months back.

We’ll just get into another argument about electability. Surely the last election gives you some pause for thought.

And of course live it first. The Labour Party could help people from the off without even being elected if it chooses to invest in communities.

Until what happened is agreed on - and we won't because it means accepting that the switch to remain took 50 seats off labour and so the people supporting that shouldn't ever be listened to again - then there's no point. 2019 should be your wake up call, we were right, not you - you are going to kill what's left of that party. PASOK - look 'em up.

I am quite astonished that this is still going on and i don't think i want to do this again. It is 100% clear as day.

 

[butchersapron]

OK, what is the remaining labour coalition - members and voters? What was it in 2017? Let's work backwards.

 

[redsquirrel]

There is obviously a sweet spot. I’m not sure what on Earth you could possibly hope for electorally (I appreciate you don’t care much for it) without looking for that. What is the target small town voter telling you about socialism?

Butchers post 1344 provides the answer to the question. I'm just making the point that the LP you seem to want is not a socialist party (unless you take Morrison line).