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Who will be the next Labour leader?

Who will replace Corbyn?


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Starmer's campaign chief is Simon Fletcher, prominent left-winger and Corbyn's former chief of staff.
On one hand its quite a confusing alliance of staffers isnt it? Although on the other quite fitting for a unity candidate who has said "We are not going to trash the last Labour government… nor are we going to trash the last four years [under Jeremy Corbyn]" and “An end to factionalism”, “an end to factions” . He's begining to fit the Kinnock role as Smokeandsteam described him in more than one way.
 
This article/interview doesnt reveal a lot but it does reveal a couple of things 1) He's clearly the Greater Manchester Labour Council's candidate of choice and I suspect will be in Yorkshire 2) Its a careful courting 'unity' campaign that wants to avoid attacking other candidates 3)There wont be any continuity Corbynism ( just the spirit of it), the 2019 manifesto is up for grabs bar one or two key pledges. 3) the 'championing' towns/cities in the North not commentating on them is seen as the way to win back Tory voters and will be the attack line against Johnson in those areas ie put your money and support where your mouth is.
Interesting about Rayners comments, Angela Rayner launches bid to become Labour Party deputy leader she has a good chance of getting the Deputy position. Former DPP as leader ( naturally) and ex care assistant as deputy.
 
I think that analysis is on the money The39thStep.

If you can't read between the lines on these statements and see where he intends to go then you are blind
And then the careful critique kicks in: “The 2017 manifesto needs to be translated into something relevant to lives in the 2020s and 2030s, because I think profoundly believe that Labour wins when it is able to glimpse the future, show people what the future looks like and actually persuade people there’s a better future there.”
“It is perfectly legitimate for a democratic government to say we will support good businesses and work with good businesses, but there are rules of the game.

“Just to give an example of the ones I think are most important: what has bedevilled productivity is short term investment. So one of the rules of the game - one of the things I would put in place as leader of the Labour Party - is a framework that incentivises long term investment and disincentivises short term investment.
 
Interesting about Rayners comments, Angela Rayner launches bid to become Labour Party deputy leader

It is good to see a Labour big wig admit not only that family members voted Brexit (presumably not fascists/racists) but also how badly Labour’s position and approach was received in communities like hers.

I like Rayner - she clearly gets it. Whether she’s got the wherewithal, or would have the opportunity as deputy, to shift the LP away from its developing delusional conclusions about what has gone wrong is a different matter though
 
There's been repeated Shouldve Done This or That Re Brexit chat the last few days - and of course before that, and before that and before that too.
I think it was Proper Tidy who linked to the very good Salvage postportem. I think on this issue of what should Labour have done re Brexit in hindsight they are exactly right - options were lose lose, or lose some more. Brexit was unsolveable for Labour - and the tendency to say I Was Right Where's My Apology is ........wrong.
Its a long piece so C&Ping it across two posts. It could be longer though - easy to forget the daily stages that happened.

1.
Amid the left post-mortems, certain tendencies are emerging.

Perhaps most clear is a cluster of takes from proponents of Left Brexit – ‘Lexiters’ ranging from supporters for leave in principle under all circumstances, those who thought Labour should have campaigned to leave in the first place, to the heavy-hearted remain-supporters who advocated a pro-democratic stance after the referendum. Ian Lavery has suggested that Labour should have tactically voted through May’s deal as a least-bad option when it was offered. As Ronan Burtenshaw puts it in Tribune, one of the strategic mistakes, if not the key, was to stand ‘against the democratic mandate on Brexit’ – the party’s shift between 2017 and 2019 to a second-referendum position. Whatever its particulars, such a shift did not honour the 2016 referendum, and could be understood and depicted as anti-democratic, and in any case would always have been seen as far closer to Remain than Leave. Given the losses in Leave seats, and given that Labour’s Brexit position gave Johnson space to audaciously position himself as pro-democracy, working in the interests of the people, and to position Corbyn as their enemy, there is a clear intuitive sense to this position.

Seeming to countervail it is the fact that, according to Datapraxis’s recent breakdown of voting patterns, ‘a larger number of Labour’s 2017 voters seem to have switched to other Remain parties’ than switched to the Conservatives – 1.1 million Labour Remainers to the Liberal Democrats, Greens and SNP, and as many as 250,000 Labour Leavers thereto, also, as compared to up to 1 million Labour Leavers to the Conservatives, by some way the majority in the heartlands. On this basis, some Labour Remainers, again, from left and right, and with varying degrees of criticisms of the actually-existing EU, are suggesting that an earlier decision by the leadership to support a second referendum much sooner would have been more effective electorally in 2019.

But unaccounted for in the Datapraxis report, as it readily admits, are the abstainers in the 2019 election: ‘[h]undreds of thousands more may have stayed at home’. Indeed, according to the latest Lord Ashcroft poll, the number of 2017 Labour voters who did not vote in this election dwarfs the switch to any other party. Pro-Leavers can very reasonably infer that the sum of those who switched allegiance and those who abstained due to Labour’s move to a second referendum likely exceeds those Labour Remainers who voted Lib Dem. That thus, allowing that this is all least-bad-options territory, the first referendum should indeed have been honoured.

The fact is that there are serious limitations to all such hindsight wisdom, on all sides.

One is confirmation bias. Grace Blakeley in Jacobin rightly criticises the Labour leadership for ‘vacillating’ over Brexit, but – admirably, given the inadequacy of data yet available – notably restrains herself from extrapolating from that to suggesting that sticking with a left Leave, a position she has articulated elsewhere, would ‘therefore’ have been electorally preferable. Not all commentators, however, are so restrained or rigorous about ‘deriving’ their already-held retrospective ‘solution’ – on either side – from the contested and incomplete data. But if the task is to analyse why Labour lost, and how it did so, then as far as possible not only points of principle but pre-existing druthers must be bracketed.

Salvage has always agree with the Lexiters that the EU is a neoliberal organisation, but contested that it follows that we should automatically always have been pro-Leave. Going into the referendum, our position – shared, we believe, with many on the left – was that it made little sense to be pro- or anti-Brexit in principle, because what was on offer was not an abstract Brexit but a Brexit in a particular political conjuncture overwhelmingly controlled by the hard right. Conversely, we were suspicious of the room for radical manoeuvre within the EU that the Remain-and-Reformers held would be available, and given the EU’s border barbarity and crushing of Greece – hence our plague-on-both-houses position in the referendum. Of course this by no means guarantees objectivity or rigour now: we have been wrong about much, and will be wrong again. But in terms of post-factum analysis of this appalling result, we can at least be confident that with regard to the party’s – clearly flawed – Brexit position, we are not falling prey to confirmation bias in one or the other direction.

Everyone can agree with Blakeley that the vacillation, the late decision-making, the palpable uneasiness with which Brexit policy was decided, Corbyn’s reluctance to commit to campaigning for one side or another in a future referendum, hurt the party badly. There were, of course, reasons for such hesitation, and it would be unfair to ignore them: the schism was very real and deeply divisive and destructive to the party. But the leadership’s ambiguity now looks pretty clearly not to have been constructive at all – rather the opposite. The least-bad of those bad options would surely have been to decide on a position earlier, to defend it full-throatedly.

But the fact that Brexit was the key variable and problem does not mean that it had a solution. Decide the policy earlier, certainly: but either way you decide it and no matter how early and how nimbly and how aggressively you defend it, there would have been cascading effects all the way down. In every case there is at least a reasonable argument that the cons would have outweighed the pros.

Retain Labour Remainers by supporting a second referendum much earlier, and make an impassioned and articulate case to Labour Leavers to stay with you on the grounds that the Leave on the table is in fact a wedge for Trumpian neoliberalism, a sizeable proportion of the latter might come on-side, perhaps enough to avoid this electoral melt-down. But given the long-term systemic collapse of Labour in the heartlands, which was already articulating in Brexit terms, there is every reason to be suspicious of this.

Retain those Leavers by accepting the referendum result early, and argue with passion to Remainers that as democrats we have no choice but to do so, and that the task now is to forge policies as radical as possible and a Brexit as positive and anti-racist as possible, perhaps large enough numbers of remain-supporting Labour voters, particularly in London and the south, would be persuaded. This seems at this point, with the clear-sightedness of hindsight, to have been probably the least bad-option. But even campaigning for a ‘progressive’ and anti-racist Brexit from the day of the referendum result is not without its own risks, particularly given the relative weakness of Labour tribalism among young metropolitan Remain voters offered the options of other pro-Remain parties, and given that floating signification of ‘Europe’ among many in that cohort. And bearing in mind that we could not take the Leavers for granted either – as Meadway points out, ‘[w]e were losing leave-voting seats like Mansfield already in 2017’, before the turn away from the referendum result.

And let us not forget that such a position would only have provoked even more attacks from the pro-Remain Labour centrists, causing chaos,possibly the further loss of MPs for Corbyn in the interim, if not another leadership challenge that would have done even more damage to the project. And even with such a position it would still have been possible for the Conservatives to paint Corbyn as an obstacle to democracy if his party had still voted down May’s dreadful deal.
 
2.
In some principled Lexiters, no matter how judicious and careful they are about the analysis of class in the abstract, is in their pro-Brexitism a discernible nostalgia for the very traditional, ‘cultural’ or ‘income-based’ theories of class they would rightly criticise in others. Ash Sarkar persuasively contested John Curtice’s argument that Labour had become a party of the young rather than of the working class by pointing out the changing intersections of demographics, employment and income, to insist that his was a category error. And yet there are clear strains of such a position in Burtenshaw’s claim that ‘[a]s party memberships exploded in London and the South East, they were often stagnant in the very “heartlands” we lost … Labour lost not because it was too much of a working-class party, but because it was too little of one, in too few areas’. Of course, we would never disagree that it should always be more of a working-class party in more areas. But missing from this is the sense that the explosion of membership in the south might also be in substantial part of the working class – but a working class different from the traditionalist horny-handed-sons-of-toil image. This implicit culturalist workerism becomes explicit in Philip Cunliffe’s description, on the podcast Aufhebunga Bunga, of what he perceives from the Labour Party as a ‘shift towards a particular middle class, which is to say academics, cosmopolitan-minded academics, pro-EU areas of the country, and students’: to be a ‘pro-EU area’, seemingly to be ‘pro-EU’, is here definitionally to be middle-class, a position both circular in terms of justification for Lexit, and idealist in terms of theorising class. Missing, to go further, is any understanding of how the pro-Remain affiliation of many of these new, yes, in large numbers working-class, Labour members and supporters, is a class-inflected position. Such a position reflects the nature of class, culturally, politically, economically, professionally, as they experience it, no less than do the pro-Leave inclinations of a worker in the heartlands.

The point is not that one or the other of these is necessarily ‘correct’ class-for-itself class consciousness: it is that the Manichean Lexiter positing that Leave was, when you get down to brass tacks, the ‘real’ class vote, effaces the class consciousness of the multi-ethnic southern and urban working class – and any strategy to win back the heartlands that does not treat that other constituency as no less valuable, not ‘really’ working class, is ultimately nostalgic.

Relatedly, given that the key axis of contestation around Europe was always going to be immigration, the only way a ‘progressive’ Brexit could have been forged that would be acceptable in principle, let alone to the multi-ethnic left Remainers and abstainers like us, would have been to retain free movement after Brexit – or, even better, to expand it beyond Europe’s borders. And it is moot whether that would have been acceptable to large numbers of Labour Leavers. This is so whatever the stated concerns behind Brexit. The hard Lexiters like to point out – correctly – that attitudes to immigration have been softening over time. But their implied or stated conclusion that ‘therefore’ the Brexit vote was disentanglable in the past or future from racist immigration positions is wildly tendentious, overestimating the convergence of objective and subjective racism, the protean nature of immigration in the capitalist imaginary, the speed with which racism can be and has been whipped up, and the flotation of the Brexit signifier.

To repeat, none of this is to say that earlier, surer-footed respect for the referendum result, or even, just possibly, in similarly unapologetic and radical fashion, support for a second referendum – definitely wouldn’t have worked. It is to say that either might well not have, and that the implication that with this One Weird Brexit Trick the Labour Party could have ‘solved’ the problem of the 2019 election is profoundly unconvincing. Just because you can correctly diagnose a problem does not validate your proposed solution – nor even the assumption that there is any solution to be had.

This election went catastrophically wrong. There are certainly – above all in terms of leadership style and electoral tactics – things that clearly should have been done differently, even given the same circumstances, and those lessons we must learn. But that things went wrong does not mean there was, necessarily, a way they could have gone right, or even much less wronger. Everyone sensible on the left has long been talking in terms of lose-lose, of least-bad-options, with regard to the Labour Party and Brexit. As we continue our analysis, we must be open to the possibility that one lesson of this election might be that there was, in fact, no non-catastrophic option available.

It is possible that this would always, no matter what Brexit position was taken, when and how, have been the death knell of the parliamentary road to survival.
 
It is good to see a Labour big wig admit not only that family members voted Brexit (presumably not fascists/racists) but also how badly Labour’s position and approach was received in communities like hers.

I like Rayner - she clearly gets it. Whether she’s got the wherewithal, or would have the opportunity as deputy, to shift the LP away from its developing delusional conclusions about what has gone wrong is a different matter though
I've known her for years, good socialist but a product of, and largely loyal to and reliant on North West Trade Unions and Labour.I do like the fact her election launch was in Adswood , its one of the top three deprived wards in Stockport.
 
What’s with them all falling over themselves with this BoDs 10 pointer

I like the one about how potential Labour leaders will have to confirm that they'll only deal with the 'main community ogranisations' and not with individuals or 'fringe groups'.

So, in order to prove she's not an antisemite, Rebecca Long Bailey has agreed not to talk to any Jews.
 
What amazes me (but probably shouldn't) is that after Labour's growing disappearance in working class towns, after the Brexit vote, even after the gen election, people on here are still posing the problem as 'how should Labour do little more than pull the levers to the point where people vote differently in 5 years'. Rather than thinking about the party in a deep relationship with voters - something set in day to day life, in places - something that finally moves beyond the idea of the party as the place where politics and power are done, paradoxically, the working class becomes no more than a herd of people to be corralled (the working class as an extension of the party). Can't say I've been reading the different candidates statements, haven't really imagining Sir Keir Starmer of Emily Thornberry would be planning to extend and shift the party towards being a social movement tbh. But, from what I've seen, the left has been just as bad. Rebecca Long Bailey's thing that said the word 'community' every paragraph was a garbled mishmash of contradictory ideas that showed nothing had really changed. Things are going to be fucking awful and all the Labour Party will have will be something slightly to the left (or right) of Ed Miliband, but with added 'patriotism'.

Edit: not aimed at the post above, just a generic wail of despair.

I've been reading similar on twitter - i.e what can Labour do to help people: for example:

"Why isn't Labour running food banks? Offering debt advice? Housing advice? Welfare advice? Why aren't labour MP surgeries the 1st stop for ppls problems with phone lines & volunteer teams? We don't need to trick working ppl into supporting us, we need to support them!"

Others have refered back to how the Lab party was originally founded, and late-Victorian self-help/workers education...

Does anyone see this as a way forward now? My gut instinct is to be dubious of it all in practice.. not sure it would happen, not clear how it would translate into politics..

:confused:
 
I've been reading similar on twitter - i.e what can Labour do to help people: for example:

"Why isn't Labour running food banks? Offering debt advice? Housing advice? Welfare advice? Why aren't labour MP surgeries the 1st stop for ppls problems with phone lines & volunteer teams? We don't need to trick working ppl into supporting us, we need to support them!"

Others have refered back to how the Lab party was originally founded, and late-Victorian self-help/workers education...

Does anyone see this as a way forward now? My gut instinct is to be dubious of it all in practice.. not sure it would happen, not clear how it would translate into politics..

:confused:

I think a party doing this stuff and becoming central to working class lives through actions, and - going beyond the doing things for the poor stuff above - empowering people to take action to improve things for them and theirs, the self help and workers education you refer to, would be fantastic. I don't think the labour party is capable of it.
 
Interestingly enough Nandy in one of her videos made a very good point about communities finding solutions to problems, community owned projects funded and supported by a Labour Councils rather than top down services.
 
I've been reading similar on twitter - i.e what can Labour do to help people: for example:

"Why isn't Labour running food banks? Offering debt advice? Housing advice? Welfare advice? Why aren't labour MP surgeries the 1st stop for ppls problems with phone lines & volunteer teams? We don't need to trick working ppl into supporting us, we need to support them!"

Others have refered back to how the Lab party was originally founded, and late-Victorian self-help/workers education...

Does anyone see this as a way forward now? My gut instinct is to be dubious of it all in practice.. not sure it would happen, not clear how it would translate into politics..

:confused:

We can do all that good stuff without labour party branding. More effectively too, because it will look like solidarity for its own sake and not like shallow bribery.

It is time for this phase of hoping against hope that the labour party will somehow be a genuinely progressive force to end. Time to shitcan labour for good IMHO. If Long-Bailey is the radical left candidate then frankly they've shitcanned themselves already.
 
We can do all that good stuff without labour party branding. More effectively too, because it will look like solidarity for its own sake and not like shallow bribery.

It is time for this phase of hoping against hope that the labour party will somehow be a genuinely progressive force to end. Time to shitcan labour for good IMHO. If Long-Bailey is the radical left candidate then frankly they've shitcanned themselves already.

I'd normally feel some sort of duty to mutter something about ultra leftism at this point but yeah basically agree.
 
Interestingly enough Nandy in one of her videos made a very good point about communities finding solutions to problems, community owned projects funded and supported by a Labour Councils rather than top down services.

I’m still making my mind up about Nandy. She seems to have some good ideas and is clearly capable and professional. But, she also comes over a bit career politician and sometimes her politics reek of soft leftism
 
I've been reading similar on twitter - i.e what can Labour do to help people: for example:

"Why isn't Labour running food banks? Offering debt advice? Housing advice? Welfare advice? Why aren't labour MP surgeries the 1st stop for ppls problems with phone lines & volunteer teams? We don't need to trick working ppl into supporting us, we need to support them!"

Others have refered back to how the Lab party was originally founded, and late-Victorian self-help/workers education...

Does anyone see this as a way forward now? My gut instinct is to be dubious of it all in practice.. not sure it would happen, not clear how it would translate into politics..

:confused:
I don't think it's primarily or initially about doing something that has a policy endpoint. It's about establishing the party in working class places/life. It's also, of course, a way of resisting, a form of self protection and the rest. But on policy, the ideal of this 'community focused party' model would be to have action rooted in and determined by the working class, something that may not 'fit within' the party, a case of not being fussed whether things fit within. The ideal would some kind of synergy (I hate that word) between the extra party social movement and the party. All of that is deliberately vague, the act of establishing the party in working class can't be a top down act or pre-written - nor can the policy outcomes. The important thing is to do it - and even before that, to grasp that that is what needs to be done (not something we are a centimetre nearer at the moment).

The other thing I'd add is that whilst the examples given are usually about things like foodbanks and benefits advice, it shouldn't just be aimed at the very poorest or those in the most precarious positions. It's about the wider working class (a.k.a. the working class!) in different settings.
 
I suppose this is about reaching the limits of Corbynism. Electorally, the limits have been reached for the next 5 years, probably 10. But this leadership debate is a confirmation that the political imagination of the Labour left was never going to expand - and hasn't, even at the point where Labour has clearly lost whole swathes of the country. The things I was on about ^ were never going to happen and never will, even in a dilute form. Corbynism was about social democracy and being a party. Whether those who joined/rejoined Labour on the back of Corbyn's victory leave is of course up to them. But there should be no kidding yourself that it's going to happen under Nandy, Long-Bailey or similar. Why waste your energy fighting the good fight against... Sir Keir Starmer.
 
I've been reading similar on twitter - i.e what can Labour do to help people: for example:

"Why isn't Labour running food banks? Offering debt advice? Housing advice? Welfare advice? Why aren't labour MP surgeries the 1st stop for ppls problems with phone lines & volunteer teams? We don't need to trick working ppl into supporting us, we need to support them!"

Others have refered back to how the Lab party was originally founded, and late-Victorian self-help/workers education...

Does anyone see this as a way forward now? My gut instinct is to be dubious of it all in practice.. not sure it would happen, not clear how it would translate into politics..

:confused:

This is how the German SPD operated pre 1930's, though huge industrial/trade union base then.
 
I've been reading similar on twitter - i.e what can Labour do to help people: for example:

"Why isn't Labour running food banks? Offering debt advice? Housing advice? Welfare advice? Why aren't labour MP surgeries the 1st stop for ppls problems with phone lines & volunteer teams? We don't need to trick working ppl into supporting us, we need to support them!"

Others have refered back to how the Lab party was originally founded, and late-Victorian self-help/workers education...

Does anyone see this as a way forward now? My gut instinct is to be dubious of it all in practice.. not sure it would happen, not clear how it would translate into politics..

:confused:
This is how the German SPD operated pre 1930's, though huge industrial/trade union base then.

I absolutely do, but also give people tools and confidence things on themselves, big issue, as many here point out, it would mean in practice taking on local labour councils, etc.
 
Interestingly enough Nandy in one of her videos made a very good point about communities finding solutions to problems, community owned projects funded and supported by a Labour Councils rather than top down services.

My New Labour Council says that is what its doing.

The reality is somewhat different.

Secondly my New Labour Council is a Coop Council. This dates back to the days of Blair. The leader of Labour in Lambeth Steve Reed (now an MP) launch the idea of Coop Councils.

The idea behind it was that the Welfare state set up after WW2 was out of date. That "top down" services lead to "welfare dependency". That a return to "self Help" and "mutuals" would be a return to proper Labour values.

I am involved i a couple of local community organisations. I remember one of the 100% Blaiirte Cllrs telling me to stop moaning about a service ( I paid for btw) and put forward a plan to run it ourselves.

The whole idea was almost the same as Cameron's "Big Society". As Steve Reed said the move was to change local Councils from "providers" to "enablers"

In practise it was the part privatisation of services. It was also dumping imo a lot of responsibility on time strapped local residents with in practise minimall support from Council . If not hostile attitude from senior officers.

Also in practise it didn't work that well. The Lambeth Council have had to take Council housing management back in-house. Any service run by a "provider" when contract runs out decision will be made with an option to take back in-house. That is a recent change of heart by the Council.

Given the dire inequality in central London there is a case for bringing back a form of Municipal Socialism.

At one point ,Sadiq when he was the new and radical the Mayor of London, was talking about setting up an energy company to deal with fuel poverty. That didn't last

Community groups can only struggle to hold the line. They cant imo be expected to run services long term on their own.




















.
 
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I've been reading similar on twitter - i.e what can Labour do to help people: for example:

"Why isn't Labour running food banks? Offering debt advice? Housing advice? Welfare advice? Why aren't labour MP surgeries the 1st stop for ppls problems with phone lines & volunteer teams? We don't need to trick working ppl into supporting us, we need to support them!"

Others have refered back to how the Lab party was originally founded, and late-Victorian self-help/workers education...

Does anyone see this as a way forward now? My gut instinct is to be dubious of it all in practice.. not sure it would happen, not clear how it would translate into politics..

:confused:


I've been reading similar on twitter - i.e what can Labour do to help people: for example:

"Why isn't Labour running food banks? Offering debt advice? Housing advice? Welfare advice? Why aren't labour MP surgeries the 1st stop for ppls problems with phone lines & volunteer teams? We don't need to trick working ppl into supporting us, we need to support them!"

Others have refered back to how the Lab party was originally founded, and late-Victorian self-help/workers education...

Does anyone see this as a way forward now? My gut instinct is to be dubious of it all in practice.. not sure it would happen, not clear how it would translate into politics..

:confused:

To be fair to my local Ward Cllrs and MPs they have big case load dealing with issues like housing. Kate Hoey MP was particularly good with dealing with constituents problems. My Ward Cllrs have a lot to deal with in a deprived ward like mine in Lambeth. (London).

Its that its not something public necessarily gets to hear about.

Any inner London Council ward / constituency has big case load. Immigration is one area for inner London MPs- issues with problems with Home Office for example.

Trouble is a lot of people assume being a Ward Cllr or MP is a gravy train . Its not. Particularly for Ward Cllrs .
 
Can't see it matters who gets elected . Boris in for ten years maybe more
Things can change quickly in terms of the polls, votes and the rest, but yes. Which all should shift the emphasis onto finding ways to actually lock horns with neoliberalism and the Tories (rather than focusing on whether some Labour Mp or other might step up and start doing things that neither they nor their party have ever shown any signs of doing. Having said that, everything feels flat and defeated, not many green shoots outside of parliament. A really fucking shit time.
 
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