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who is responsible for the London attacks?

When I got home tonight I saw a couple of interviews with friends of the families who knew the bombers. I think the interviews took place in Leeds. One on CNN and one on american public television. I really felt awful for these guys. They were clearly shocked and angered by what happened. The also had admiration for Britian. They were solid British Pakistanis, one even spoke of the queen.

They had obviously come to Britian and made a solid life for themselves and their familes.

I hope this is a one off, and they can get on with their lives.
 
pk said:
So the explosives found in their house must have been assumed to be BluTac or plastecine?

:rolleyes:
<abuse snipped>

I've just been going over the Guardian article this morning and it makes no mention of explosives found inside a house. There were explosives found in an abandoned car. Can we clarify this?
 
DrJazzz said:
I've just been going over the Guardian article this morning and it makes no mention of explosives found inside a house. There were explosives found in an abandoned car. Can we clarify this?
Will you ever bother to undertake the most basic of research before going off on your barking claims?

Your last research-unhindered thread currently residing in the bin was bad enough, but it took me less than five seconds to find a source mentioning explosives in a house.

The Investigation: Bath filled with explosives found at 'operational base' of terrorists

A bath filled with explosives has been found at a house in Leeds that was the "operational base" for the London suicide bombers.
The discovery of a such a large amount of high explosives has shocked detectives and has raised fears of further attacks.
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article299087.ece
 
You missed it then Jazzz.

From the Guardian:

"A bomb factory was yesterday found in a raid on a house in the Burley area of Leeds, but police believe the four suspects, who are all thought to be dead, lacked the expertise to plan the operation or put together the explosives."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1527699,00.html?gusrc=rss

If I were paranoid, I'd say it was curious you missed this piece of news reporting if you'd read the Guardian!

A conspiracy, in fact!
 
editor said:
Washington Times reports that the explosive - C4 - most likely came from the US, with a forensic scientists saying that the construction of the four devices detonated in London was very technically advanced, and unlike any instructions that can be found on the Internet.

http://www.washtimes.com/upi/20050713-073604-2293r.htm

I'm purely speculating, but I doubt very much it came from the US if it were in the hands of the terrorists... more likely from the US to Israel as part of regular military consignments and then stolen and smuggled via Israel through Europe... much like other bits the US gives Israel that go missing from time to time...

My opinion only though.
 
gunneradt said:
yes but only the muslim faith seems to spawn suicide bombers - unless you include japanese kamikaze bombers.
People have willingly gone to an almost certain death for all sorts of causes and countries. I am sure there are examples from WW2 where British soldiers either went on missions or took actions in combat where they knew they weren't coming back, but still 'did their duty'. More recently Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka have used suicide bombers. I am sure there are other examples if you go and look carefully. It isn't always 'religion' - ideologies, nationalisms and loyalty to tribe, community, family and friends often see people willingly sacrifice their lives.

I have heard suicide bombers described as 'the poor man's cruise missle' - a bomb that can be guided carefully to its intended target to cause the maximum destruction.

Personally I don't really care if a bomb is left somewhere or is strapped to the bomber. It kills and injures people just the same.
 
pk said:
I'm purely speculating, but I doubt very much it came from the US if it were in the hands of the terrorists... more likely from the US to Israel as part of regular military consignments and then stolen and smuggled via Israel through Europe... much like other bits the US gives Israel that go missing from time to time...

My opinion only though.
The BBC are saying the explosives can just as readily have been sourced from Eastern Europe / the Balkans.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4678807.stm

The bombs themselves have also been described as relatively advanced.

It would be a surprise if four amateurs could have got hold of the material and turned it into a bomb themselves.




These four men must have had outside help.
 
TeeJay said:
Personally I don't really care if a bomb is left somewhere or is strapped to the bomber. It kills and injures people just the same.

Personally, I prefer the suicide bombs, given a choice in such a morbid matter.

You know the cunt is dead and can't do it again, no lawyers, no expensive prison term, plea bargaining, offensive acts to wind up the victims, colour TV in the cell, deals with the newspapers on his or her release, etc. etc.

Dead and forgotten.
 
gunneradt said:
not quite the same thing nor really an explanation.

gunner
What kind of explanation are you looking for?

Islam is evil?

If that's what your thinking, and I'm pretty sure it is, then you have to consider the people that murder in the name of the other "great" religions.

It's not just those fellas. Remember that people have deliberately sacrificed there lives for many and varied causes.
Fellas have blown themselves up (and anyone near them) before. Not in the name of Islam but in the name of many and varied causes.

These guys are fucking nutters. I suppose that they are misguided.
I would say tho that they have been theologically and politically misguided in equal measures.

You cannot blame the religion for this.
If one was to blame the religion then one could quite easily blame it on Britian's policies and support for the US in Iraq.
Obviously I will not be going down the road of blaming any group or governing powers for the reasons I have stated.
 
That is it. It is just seems to me anyway, from the information available, as some phantom with no real base. it is just gets mentioned all the time, but there are no decent references to make me support the belief that it is an actual organisation.
 
gunneradt said:
yes but only the muslim faith seems to spawn suicide bombers - unless you include japanese kamikaze bombers.

gunner

Suicide bombings (or suicide as warfare) are not just a Muslim/Japanese cultural phenomena. You have to look at the Tamil Tigers who regularly used suicide attacks as a form of warfare. Suicide bombers are a great way of getting the weapon to the target. Also the Jewish defense of Masada, when the Jews would rather commit suicide than surrender to the Romans.
 
Dilzybhoy said:
What kind of explanation are you looking for?

Islam is evil?

If that's what your thinking, and I'm pretty sure it is, then you have to consider the people that murder in the name of the other "great" religions.

It's not just those fellas. Remember that people have deliberately sacrificed there lives for many and varied causes.
Fellas have blown themselves up (and anyone near them) before. Not in the name of Islam but in the name of many and varied causes.

These guys are fucking nutters. I suppose that they are misguided.
I would say tho that they have been theologically and politically misguided in equal measures.

You cannot blame the religion for this.
If one was to blame the religion then one could quite easily blame it on Britian's policies and support for the US in Iraq.
Obviously I will not be going down the road of blaming any group or governing powers for the reasons I have stated.

No I'm not making any kind of statement as to the merits or dismerits of any religion. I'm merely looking for an explanation. I dislike religious fanatics of any kind. These guys are fanatics but I want to know why they do it in the name of Islam or use Islam as their cause. Why not just say 'we hate the West' and what they do and what they stand for.

gunner
 
mears said:
When I got home tonight I saw a couple of interviews with friends of the families who knew the bombers. I think the interviews took place in Leeds. One on CNN and one on american public television. I really felt awful for these guys. They were clearly shocked and angered by what happened. The also had admiration for Britian. They were solid British Pakistanis, one even spoke of the queen.

They had obviously come to Britian and made a solid life for themselves and their familes.

I hope this is a one off, and they can get on with their lives.


Well said. Wait, er... Mears?

*checks pulse, wanders off in a daze*
 
Keyzer Soze - Regarding motivation I think it is of paramount importance that we don't lazily superimpose our politics on the situation (not that I'm pointing any fingers or anything). While Iraq may well have angered some in the Islamic world, my guess is that it would have been seen as just another link in the chain of inevitable and expected Islamic oppression as opposed to an absolute abomination under international law.

Even then I don't think the analysis of Islamic oppression would figure much in their world view apart from as a buttress for the fundamental pillars of their beliefs. They probably haven't even been inspired by extremely complex ideas, just a jihadi sense of purpose to purify their own personal Islam and Islam in general.

The concept of al-qaeda may have come into play at some stage as they sought to glorify themselves by subscribing to the warrior beliefs of extremist heroes, but there was no central command issuing a specific order to a highly trained and disciplined cell. At most these men would have respected the organisation, it's powerful collection of ideas and specifically it's pan-Islamic pride exhorting for a millenarian belief that the next caliphate is just around the corner.

They may well have jumped at a chance to work with one of the 'big boys', possibly the Syrian who masterminded the Madrid bombings and who is supposed to be in England, or maybe one of them met someone in Pakistan.

I doubt that they were motivated by politics, history or even innate hatred alone. Their reasons were probably multi-causual and may have been governed by pride and peer pressure above all else.

I think the dangers that face British society after the bombings lie in familiar lines of inquiry that may become dangerous red herrings. This has already happened once as over the last five years we have feared Islamophobia so much that we (and I mean the whole of society) have failed to recognise the power of extremist religion, something that has been an alien presence to the majority of mainland Britain for many centuries. Instead we have looked to foreign dissidents as the foment of Islamic extremisim while safe in the conceit that we were looking for an external threat, a coherent organisation that to some degree respected international boundaries.

We now have to stop looking at reasons of economic deprivation, racial and religious oppression or political outrage. We have to be totally honest and discard our previous agendas on this matter and accept that the terrorists had fallen under the spell of a group of ideas that represent a paradigm shift in how the world can be viewed. Once we get to this first base we might be able to move on and stop swinging clumsily at problems that deep down we know have lost credibility with a group of four relatively ordinary young Asian muslims from Leeds.
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
Well then, the precursor organization. The one you guys harp on about the US funding.
I think guns and ammo, etc, thought that the anti soviet muhahedin were great, not islamo-fascists.
I subscribed too G&A in that period loved Nazi snipers, pro-apartheidt mercs and baby burning Contras. If it carried a nice gun and killed Commies it could do no wrong.

What's evident is Langley under Casey was dominated by a new generation of Crusading Reaganites (like Mike Scheuer) who they felt deep empathy with the Holy Warriors of the Jihad. But I don't support the paranoid view that AQ was a CIA construction.

Steve Coll's Ghost Wars is worth reading on the Soviet-Afghan War, it's an account from the CIA perspective. Langley was a suprisingly passive actor in the war. They did provide half the funding Saudi the rest, men, and moral support. It was Pakistan's ISI that was the real driving force in the Pashtun South and kept the (rather timid) CIA at arms length. The Pakistani state constructed their Afghan Jihad as an instrument its consistantly malign foreign policy and they lost control of both their own ISI and the Jihadis a decade ago.

Pakistanis are very reasonable folk but their military is dangerously psychotic has a proven predeliction for genocide and is armed with nukes. I do blame DC to some extent, their cynical support of Pakistans millitary is one root of the problem. They should have let the Indians take it over in 72. The British should never have let partition happen either.
 
pk said:
You missed it then Jazzz.

From the Guardian:

"A bomb factory was yesterday found in a raid on a house in the Burley area of Leeds, but police believe the four suspects, who are all thought to be dead, lacked the expertise to plan the operation or put together the explosives."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1527699,00.html?gusrc=rss

If I were paranoid, I'd say it was curious you missed this piece of news reporting if you'd read the Guardian!

A conspiracy, in fact!
Right. So 'a bomb factory' was found in a house, not necessarily their house (they didn't live together for a start, anyway), or any of their houses. Also this report mentions no explosives being found; and if you remember the 'ricin factory' that never was you should be keen to notice these differences.

As has been noted, these guys weren't capable of making high explosives, so they would have had no place in a 'bomb factory' anyway.

So all we have are four ordinary guys who people knew as ordinary guys, who were 'just going down to London with some mates'. Everything about this fits the profile of a false-flag operation.
 
DrJazzz said:
false-flag operation.

:confused:

I didn't realised you guys had started to develop your own language to furnish your own version of reality.

But seriously it really is amazing to watch your unfolding reaction to events. I've never seen conspiraloons in the wild in real time, fascinating stuff. Maybe Bill Oddie should do a show on it or something.
 
DrJazzz said:
Everything about this fits the profile of a false-flag operation.
Only in the minds of deluded conspiraloons.

As ever, you haven't a single atom of credible evidence to support your latest bonkers "false flag" nonsense, only some dogshit you scraped off some conspiraloon site or another.

It's very, very tiresome.
 
from pk's link;

"It seems that this is an operating base for them rather than any of their homes. It's not a question of this being a family home," he said

So there you go; not 'their' house at all. A house.
 
DrJazzz you really don't have enough information to say anything for sure. You always jump in far too soon, invent whole convoluted accounts on the basis of next to nothing or a few third-hand words writen by some idiot journalist and end up having to retract and apoligise.

Yes it is *possible* that at least one or more of the four suspects didn't really have a clue about the whole plan and was just carrying a package which the exploded.

However, since we don't yet know enough about these people, where they were, what they had been doing and who they had been with for the period before last Thursday it is just crazy to start inventing all sorts of stories about how all four of them had somehow been persuaded to carry packages to London which then exploded, and that this wasn't planned by an Al-Qaeda type, but by the CIA or MI6 or Mossad.

Also, it is far more likely IMO that all four knew what they were doing - they knew they had bombs and were taking them to explode in London. Whether they knew that they were going to explode at 8.50 am (ie that they knew it was a suicide mission) I don't know, but I am not going to pass judgement until I have seen some more evidence.

As for this being "false flag" operation (I assume you mean CIA?) - there is nothing that suggests this. This is simply you engaging in fantasy again. Why not claim it was done by psychotic elephants?
 
There's plenty to suggest it TeeJay - it fits the profile perfectly. We have a spurious and unverifiable claim of responsibility from an unknown group based around a man whose family thinks he is dead, on a server in Houston. Then we hear that the bombers committed suicide. They had no reason to; and normal fanatic would still rather live and get off at the station before his bomb goes off than blow himself up. This is a new type of 'suicide bomber'.

Then we hear (surprise, surprise!) that the bombers were known to their community as perfectly ordinary guys. This doesn't happen normally - when someone does something terrible and the neighbours are interviewed they always used to say 'well he kept himself to himself' and 'we had no idea'. You don't have their friends coming out and saying 'he was just a kid who liked cricket and worked in his family's chip shop, no interest in politics and there is no way he could have been involved in extremism'. It's nonsense!
 
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