who is responsible for the London attacks?

[Ae589]

If the indicators are that these terrorists are muslim, do you agree that the investgation should be focussed in the muslim community?

I think that makes sense - we should be asking the muslim community to help find recruiters, and I don't think we should be as careful as we have been in supporting the freedom of speech of anyone advocating or defending murder or violence in the name of anything (I believe the general consensus on this board would be different if this was another David Copeland). But I know that this:

http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2005-07/12/article02.shtml

Is what is making the recruiters job so easy.

 

[fela fan]

I think that makes sense - we should be asking the muslim community to help find recruiters, and I don't think we should be as careful as we have been in supporting the freedom of speech of anyone advocating or defending murder or violence in the name of anything (I believe the general consensus on this board would be different if this was another David Copeland).

I beg to differ. It seems likely that the perpetrators were british and these days british people have multi-denominations. If they were muslims, then we should be asking why british people who are muslims feel the need to strike at innocent people, to punish them for their leaders' policies.

All are british, if the ruling elite stopped looking after their tiny minority of their own sorry arses, and had policies that looked to make the whole nation strong instead of constantly using divisive talk, perpetuated by the media, then perhaps we might start arriving at some proper solutions.

It is not a muslim problem it is a british problem. Looking to correct just a 'part' sustains the language and policies that make the 'whole' faulty.

Don't fix the muslims in britain, no. The whole population should come together and force blair and his rotten government into actions that build communities, not forever dividing them.

This one single crime is amongst a whole series of them. Stop concentrating on just one single episode.

 

[fela fan]

The council seems to find the time to pass building permits, yet the ability to do up an old building and turn it into a community centre seems beyond them. Maybe if the kids in these areas had something positive in their lives to do then they wouldn't fall through the gaps and end up being sucked into a world where petty crime and possibly even blowing people up wouldn't be an issue......

Just read this post mate. Exactly, i think that an excellent example of the real problems facing britain. If people weren't disenfranchised, weren't disillusioned, didn't feel threatened over race issues, then no-one could recruit them, nor would anyone feel the overburning desire to either blow themselves up or just all the innocents.

Terrorism by people is after all a strike at innocent people in order to make a statement to the leaders who they themselves feel threatened/terrorised by. As with wars, terrorism is people against people, entirely down to the failings by world leaders, in particular bush and blair. Failings to the general public, but i guess complete successes by those with the largest fingers in the trough. [I do i mean paws in the trough?]

Only the people can fix this problem of terrorism, both by peoples and the US and UK leaders, by forcing their voice into the media. It'll be some job, but in my book it's the only long-term solution. We have to stop political leaders - both national and local - dividing us, we must reject that. The only way forward is to build, not bomb to oblivion.

 

[tarannau]

This one single crime is amongst a whole series of them. Stop concentrating on just one single episode.

Stop being so patronising . As a Brit yourself you can do more yourself than preaching a load of reductive nonsense from a distance. This tragic affair deserves better than another Fela lecture on how us 'Brits' should conduct yourself.

Pretending that it's all about Britain and not at all a muslim/religious problem just seems to swap one vast oversimplification for another. Religious nutjobbery comes in all forms and supercedes national boundaries . Would you say that ordinary Japanese citizens should share the blame for the opinions of a small group of Moonie cultists for example, or would you suggest the isolationalism of the Branch Davidians in Waco was something the US people and govt could have ever addressed?

 

[fela fan]

Stop being so patronising . As a Brit yourself you can do more yourself than preaching a load of reductive nonsense from a distance. This tragic affair deserves better than another Fela lecture on how us 'Brits' should conduct yourself.

Pretending that it's all about Britain and not at all a muslim/religious problem just seems to swap one vast oversimplification for another. Religious nutjobbery comes in all forms and supercedes national boundaries . Would you say that ordinary Japanese citizens should share the blame for the opinions of a small group of Moonie cultists for example, or would you suggest the isolationalism of the Branch Davidians in Waco was something the US people and govt could have ever addressed?

Mr tarannau, you can be exasperating at times.

What you don't seem to have grasped is that i am in effect an insider outside looking in. For those that don't know me here, i have lived in thailand for a fair while and am british, and mr tarannau, all that i posted was my viewpoint which comes without having been bombarded by tonnes of media print and footage on the attacks. As can happen with someone who lives abroad, but looks in on his country and what's happening there, they tend to relate british actions with how they impact on the world, how they are part of the whole and how they might influence that whole. And we know the whole is somewhat fucked these days.

Therefore what i am offering could be called an alternative point of view to that which may be prevalent in britain itself. Alternative coz it's different. Natural enough. Could be wrong, could be right, could be both.

Perhaps in times of crisis, with many problems that need solving, a different perspective on things can be a helpful addition. Of course that depends on the manner of delivery. And my delivery seems to have offended you. Oh well, never mind.

But there is a message there that deserves to be thought about, if only coz it comes from a voice that has seen nothing about, nor read anything about the attacks, save through urban. And whatever else, it's my view that one action along the line affects all the others down the line, ripple effect. Bad or good.

You have to build man, not fucking bomb.

 

[tarannau]

Fela - but you ain't contributing a different perspective. You're giving us the same repetitive and patronising Fela lecture you give every time - It's just a chance to have a pop at the British (as if we're easy to group into one coherent national 'type') and to big up your ex-pat 'outsider' credentials. Doesn't strike me as that much of an outsider viewpoint btw - you're living in a pretty popular expat 'bubble', teaching English and arguably mixing in a far less diverse social circle than many Londoners.

On one hand you're saying that you're not bombarded with the UK media, the next you're claiming to have a thorough understanding of what's going on in the country and giving us a seemingly authoratative view of what the British people should think and do. It's not so much insulting as just ridiculously oversimplied and lacking credibilty.

Take a step back and let's deal with some specifics, rather than you lecturing us with a load of shallow generalisations about what us 'Brits' are like. Perhaps then we can engage in a more meaningful debate...

 

[editor]

On one hand you're saying that you're not bombarded with the UK media, the next you're claiming to have a thorough understanding of what's going on in the country and giving us a seemingly authoratative view of what the British people should think and do. It's not so much insulting as just ridiculously oversimplied and lacking credibilty.

Yep. That's his usual tactic and it's tedious, irrelevant and disruptive.

Stick to things you know about fela, like the weather outside.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yep. That's his usual tactic and it's tedious, irrelevant and disruptive.

Stick to things you know about fela, like the weather outside.

think again, editor! we'd be bombarded with all manner of fact-free conspiracies about climate change.

 

[editor]

Where's "two suns" windsor when we need him/her, eh?

 

[slaar]

Wasn't it you who banned her ed? Perhaps you should let her back. Or perhaps not.

Definitely my favourite conspiracy that one.

 

[Pickman's model]

Where's "two suns" windsor when we need him/her, eh?

i cannot conceive of any possible situation in which her/his presence could be desirable.

 

[fela fan]

Take a step back and let's deal with some specifics, rather than you lecturing us with a load of shallow generalisations about what us 'Brits' are like. Perhaps then we can engage in a more meaningful debate...

It's called freedom of thought okay mate? You have yours, i have mine. And the twain definitely ain't gonna meet.

I don't lecture, you say i do.

I know, you don't...

 

[fela fan]

Yep. That's his usual tactic and it's tedious, irrelevant and disruptive.

Stick to things you know about fela, like the weather outside.

Mr editor, the only things i stick to are the things i know about, so good advice, but i'm already doing it.

Have you actually now reduced me to an automaton that only knows what the weather is and nothing else? Am i worth no more than that?

 

[editor]

Have you actually now reduced me to an automaton that only knows what the weather is and nothing else?

Yes. I used my magic powers to do just that.

 

[fela fan]

Yes. I used my magic powers to do just that.

For now i'm zapped.

 

[kyser_soze]

Hate to say it but someone commiting petty crime because of social deprivation and someone becoming part of jihad and blowing innocent people up are a pretty fucking huge distance apart. The social dep is most likely a factor in the initial recruitment process, but to go from that to blowing yourself up requires a very different mindset.

And fela - has it ever occured to you that these guys may not see themselves as 'British muslims' at all? From some of the stuff I've read about Islam, while obviously it's not homogenous gloabally, there is more a feeling of global unity behind the faith and that one is a muslim first, and a citizen of place of residence second.

 

[Diamond]

From some of the stuff I've read about Islam, while obviously it's not homogenous gloabally, there is more a feeling of global unity behind the faith and that one is a muslim first, and a citizen of place of residence second.

The people who did this would most likely have, in their mind, renounced their British citizenship and have wholly and completely identified themselves with the Muslim Umma, or community.

 

[kyser_soze]

The people who did this would most likely have, in their mind, renounced their British citizenship and have wholly and completely identified themselves with the Muslim Umma, or community.

This is my thinking on the subject as well - so where does that leave the hatred vs. history argument?

 

[Diamond]

This is my thinking on the subject as well - so where does that leave the hatred vs. history argument?

Sorry I haven't been following this thread and am hesitant to trawl through it's nineteen pages, is there any chance you could offer a quick summary?

 

[Ae589]

Don't fix the muslims in britain, no. The whole population should come together and force blair and his rotten government into actions that build communities, not forever dividing them.

Meanwhile, back in reality...

And I disagree about this being a British problem. The religious communities bear a responsibility for preventing recruitment within their community. Was Catholic priests abusing young boys an American, Italian, British problem? No, it was a catholic problem.

That's not to say I will not do whatever I can, nor are you wrong to say a general improvement in people's lives and the way the rest of us act towards them is an answer. It will require both.

 

[Stibs]

d' accord!!!! This "mastermind" idea is bollocks. These guys carried this out without a so-called 'guiding hand'.

Really?

Since the bombs went off, I haven't been able to get this image out of my head:

I always believed that they were parochial and probably not more than children. But I also believed they must have had some aid in sourcing the explosives, if not building the bomb.

The chances of them being "international terrorists" were always very slim, and whenever I get into an argument about Islamic terrorism, I always drag up David Copeland as an example of what untrained loonies can do with an account card at B&Q.

But, much as I don't trust them, the police seem to be certain that these kids had help from someone, probably upon the basis of which explosive was used.

 

[nino_savatte]

Really?

Since the bombs went off, I haven't been able to get this image out of my head:

I always believed that they were parochial and probably not more than children. But I also believed they must have had some aid in sourcing the explosives, if not building the bomb.

The chances of them being "international terrorists" were always very slim, and whenever I get into an argument about Islamic terrorism, I always drag up David Copeland as an example of what untrained loonies can do with an account card at B&Q.

But, much as I don't trust them, the police seem to be certain that these kids had help from someone, probably upon the basis of which explosive was used.

I am sure there is plenty of bombmaking info on the Internet, why would they necessarily need anyone else?

We shall see.

 

[kyser_soze]

Sorry I haven't been following this thread and am hesitant to trawl through it's nineteen pages, is there any chance you could offer a quick summary?

It's kinda mutated over it's course, but the general gist is that while the press spew out the 'These Islamic militants hate the West for it's freedoms and that's why they're attacking us', a lot of people here put it down to contemporary (Iraq/Israel), recent (CIA arming the Muj in Afghanistan) and historical (Israel, general long term subjugation of Muslim peoples by Euro colonial powers) and that the 'They hate the West' is a simplistic line and of little consequence.

I take the view that it's a combination of factors, no doubt aided and abetted by social factors (Muslims in the UK being poor), probably a seriously twisted version of history, coupled with the 'security' offered by serving Allah.

 

[gunneradt]

err no.

The police seem pretty sure of the origin of the explosives.

Like another reader I can't be bothered to go through 19 pages.

I do not support this Govt at all but thats another story - but it actually said something sensible today in that it was going to ban all forms of incitement like the godknowswho who was reported yesterday as going to speak in this country paid for by the taxpayer.

We really ought to stop giving people licence to preach hatred. Religions are a pain in the ass and ones that seem to be able to be distorted in this sick way are a bigger nuisance.

We have always been way too tolerant in some respects in this country. What I still find unbelievable is what can happen to an ordinary English kid who was seemingly normal. I just wish someone could explain it to me.

gunner

 

[Stibs]

I am sure there is plenty of bombmaking info on the Internet, why would they necessarily need anyone else?

We shall see.

Some of the bombers spent some time in Pakistan at a religious school, where it is possible that they met people who fought in Afghanistan. If it turns out that the explosives themselves were not readily available, then it is a prima facie case for a wider conspiracy.

(If anyone's heard what the explosives were, I'd be grateful to know.)

I'd like it to be a one off - a David Copeland, who, if memory serves, used fireworks to fire his bombs - but it may not be.

I believe that we can only solve this problem if we come at it with clean hands. I believe that there is no such thing as Al Qaeda.

But, there is patently a "jihadi network" of sad young muslims, who probably can't get girlfriends, mixing with impotent old men, who are willing to provide cover for a small number of psychopaths who may have had experience in Afghanistan, Algeria, etc.

What I'm trying to say is that it is not incompatible with the anti-war, anti-imperialist argument, if it turns out that these bombers were not entirely home-grown.

 

[audiotech]

BTW, don't forget that it's al Qaida claiming responsibility, and they attacked the US long before the Iraq war.

Desert storm in 1991 ring any bells?

 

[Ae589]

BTW, don't forget that it's al Qaida claiming responsibility, and they attacked the US long before the Iraq war.

But the people that just did it didn't attack the US - they are brand new recruits enthused by your war on terror. The youngest was 15 on 911.

 

[Jazzz]

These guys were not 'bombers'. There were patsies! It is more than likely that they had no clue whatsoever what they were carrying.

Here's a bit about Shahzad Tanweer...

Ten days ago Shahzad Tanweer, a 22-year-old British Asian, was playing cricket in the local park with his friends. It was something he loved to do. He was a sporty young man who loved martial arts, drove his dad's Mercedes and had many friends in the Beeston area of Leeds.

"He is sound as a pound," said Azi Mohammed, a close friend. "The idea that he was involved in terrorism or extremism is ridiculous. The idea that he went down to London and exploded a bomb is unbelievable.

"I only played cricket in the park with him around 10 days ago. He is not interested in politics." Guardian Article

With this kind of pedigree there can be little question of what this guy was about.

 

[pk]

So the explosives found in their house must have been assumed to be BluTac or plastecine?



Is this another of your "Huntley Is Innocent!" threads?

Because it's a load of cock and you know it.

 

[sponge]

We, the west, whoever you like. If i misinterpreted you i'm sorry, but even western intervention in the middle east is no excuse for this sort of act.

But is it the cause?