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who is responsible for the London attacks?

MC5 said:
Desert storm in 1991 ring any bells?
You don't even have to go that far back.

From bin Laden's statement just after the WTC attacks
When these defended their oppressed sons, brothers, and sisters in Palestine and in many Islamic countries, the world at large shouted. The infidels shouted, followed by the hypocrites.

One million Iraqi children have thus far died in Iraq although they did not do anything wrong.

Despite this, we heard no denunciation by anyone in the world or a fatwa by the rulers' ulema [body of Muslim scholars].

Israeli tanks and tracked vehicles also enter to wreak havoc in Palestine, in Jenin, Ramallah, Rafah, Beit Jala, and other Islamic areas and we hear no voices raised or moves made.

May God mete them the punishment they deserve

But if the sword falls on the United States after 80 years, hypocrisy raises its head lamenting the deaths of these killers who tampered with the blood, honour, and holy places of the Muslims.

The least that one can describe these people is that they are morally depraved.

The common threads here are petro-politics, Western involvement in the ME, and the character of those Americans who would now have us believe that The War Against Terror is a crusade against evil.

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These guys were not 'bombers'. There were patsies! It is more than likely that they had no clue whatsoever what they were carrying.

That's right, they were asked to take rucksacks to specific points in London and at no point did their curiosity get the better of them so that they took a peek inside. Yes, that's plausible.

These guys had their genuine grievances over the ME and the treatment of muslims worldwide manipulated by other forces.
 
Jo/Joe said:
That's right, they were asked to take rucksacks to specific points in London and at no point did their curiosity get the better of them so that they took a peek inside. Yes, that's plausible.
you're forgetting that reports indicate that the bomber on the bus became rather frantick and seemingly concerned about what was in his bag - shortly before the explosion, strangely enough...
 
Bernie Gunther said:
The US right and their supporters are promoting a global crusade against islam
I disagree that there is any specific 'crusade' against islam: The US is involved in all sorts of places and ends up fighting against all sorts of people either directly or by proxy - through 'friendly' governments or even other insurgent groups. I don't think the underlying logic has much to do with Islam - far more to do with neo-liberalism and hegemony.
 
TeeJay said:
I disagree that there is any specific 'crusade' against islam: The US is involved in all sorts of places and ends up fighting against all sorts of people either directly or by proxy - through 'friendly' governments or even other insurgent groups. I don't think the underlying logic has much to do with Islam - far more to do with neo-liberalism and hegemony.
please, teejay, let's not let reality get in the way of a good argument.
 
Pickman's model said:
you're forgetting that reports indicate that the bomber on the bus became rather frantick and seemingly concerned about what was in his bag - shortly before the explosion, strangely enough...


I thought that was him setting the timer.
 
tarannau said:
Would you say that ordinary Japanese citizens should share the blame for the opinions of a small group of Moonie cultists for example
The Moonies are from Korea aren't they?
 
DrJazzz said:
These guys were not 'bombers'. There were patsies!
Another ridiculous piece of fact-free conspiraloon tosh, supported by nothing more than your increasingly deluded fantasies.
 

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yeah theres much more important and sane topics to discuss,like how wrapping the bombers bodies in bacon would act as a deterent...
 
TeeJay said:
I'm not assuming that at all. But why do you think things are identical in NA and the UK? You think that knowing about Muslims in NA tells you a lot about the British asian community?"You"? Are you including me in this comment, because I have made no such claim? I don't disagree with your general idea that this attack is most likely part of 'international jihad' rather than an attack based on local issues. What I am objecting to is generalisations about muslims and inaccurate and ill-informed comments about the british muslim community and the british asian community by people who don't really know anything about them and are instead projecting some vague and nebulous idea of the 'middle east' or 'muslims' as some kind of homogenous mass.


What generalizations about muslims have I made?
 
TeeJay said:
What do you think about soldiers who run into a hail of bullets and near certain death to take out the enemy? Surely there are plenty of British and Americans who are prepared to die in the course of their duty? Are they 'stupid fuckers' who deserve to die?

I don't support Islamist terrorists, but I don't think that they are necessarily 'stupid'. They have very different values and beliefs to me.

I don't think they're stupid people, as in lacking intelligence, but I always get the feeling that they somehow get duped into giving up their lives by people who don't have to give up theirs. I suppose the same can be said of our leaders, who send soldiers into battle, but do their best to keep their own sons out of harm's way.


Maybe the difference is that the vast majority of our soldiers who go to war, will return unscathed, at least physically, while for suicide bombers, the numbers are pretty much reversed.

The early reports are that the one kid whose parents reported him missing, had a troubled youth, then became devoutly religious. In the past while, he spent six months in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Once again, the feeling I get is of predators picking on the psychologically weak, and co opting them to die for a cause.
 
TeeJay said:
I have seen this argument used several times over the last few days.

Different people in different places end up fighting against who they see as 'the enemy' and against what they see as injustice depending on what kind of channels there are for them. There are all sorts of violent conflicts going on in Latin America, Africa and elsewhere, often with rebels, insurgents and terrorists fighting against governments or one ethnic group fighting against another.

Poverty and "imperialism" (ie foreign/great power intervention) are often key factors that continue to fuel these conflicts, and various ideologies - ethnic/nationalist/left/right - are held out as the "solution" - a way of recruiting, legitimising and organising insurgency etc.

Fundementalist 'Islamism' of the Al Qaeda sort is yet another brand. It may be the most explicitly anti-western in both thinking and tactics, but just like many other ideologies and 'struggles' it does feed off government corruption and violence, inequality and poverty, foreign interference, human rights abuses and a lack of democracy. It might be more affluent youths who take up the struggle but no doubt they will be motivated by what they percieve to be the suffering of the poor and oppressed. Instead of seeing western liberal democracy or socialism or secular ethnic nationalism as the "solution", they come to believe in 'Islamism' and sign up as their version of freedom fighters or soldiers, just like people join struggles or armies all round the world.

But you're not really addressing the issue, that grinding poverty exists in many parts of the world, and in many parts of the world is worse than it is in the middle east.

And yes, those people will often engage in guerilla warfare etc to try to get what they see as justice; the Sendero Luminoso, the Zapatistas, the Burmese rebels etc come to mind.

But there's a difference with these people who are fighting for economic justice. For one thing, they don't seem to be overeager to get themselves killed. They want a better life for their people, and it seems that they'd just as soon be around to enjoy it also.

Another difference. With true economic rebels, you can bargain with them. They have a list of demands, and they usually stop fighting once they're met.

What were the demands of the british terrorists?

To me, the minority of muslim fanatics who are doing these things are fighting a holy war. It's not about money. It's about infidels, and holy places, and islamic governments. It's been said before that the worst wars are wars of ideology, because people will kill and kill, they'll destroy and destroy, in the name of an idea. If they're fighting for land, or wealth, or what have you, they'll be a little bit careful about destroying the stuff that they're trying to possess.

With holy warriors, the rewards come in heaven, not on earth, so earthly destruction is of little concern.
 
Clintons Cat said:
yeah theres much more important and sane topics to discuss,like how wrapping the bombers bodies in bacon would act as a deterent...

I didn't suggest bacon, for the record.

Vats of pigs blood, far more biblical...
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
Whose side was al Qaida on when Iraq attacked Iran?
Well it didn't exist but DC was a uncomfortable ally of Iraq at the time and also was an enthusiastic backer of the Sunni Jihad in Afghnastan. Even Guns&Ammo thought Islamo Fascism was great back then.

One thing that struck me today was as these fellas where Pakistanis the Afghan invasion and Mushies 'cooperation' in the hunt for AQ rather than Iraq may have been the big motivating factor I'd no quarrel with DC taking down the Taliban after 9-11 still seems like the right thing to have done.
 
oi2002 said:
Well it didn't exist but DC was a uncomfortable ally of Iraq at the time and also was an enthusiastic backer of the Sunni Jihad in Afghnastan. Even Guns&Ammo thought Islamo Fascism was great back then.

One thing that struck me today was as these fellas where Pakistanis the Afghan invasion and Mushies 'cooperation' in the hunt for AQ rather than Iraq may have been the big motivating factor I'd no quarrel with DC taking down the Taliban after 9-11 still seems like the right thing to have done.

Well then, the precursor organization. The one you guys harp on about the US funding.
I think guns and ammo, etc, thought that the anti soviet muhahedin were great, not islamo-fascists.
 
any postings relating to the fact that the terrorists (I refuse to go down the bbc politically correct route) didn't know what they were carrying is plain nonsense.

What really worries me is this. Everyone ( I honestly don't know) says that the Koran preaches peace . So what do some muslims manage to extract from this faith to engineer it into suicide bombings. We're not just talking about 2 or 3 here are we. lets face up to it. Israel has seen something like 500 dead from suicide bombings. So how can a peaceful faith be turned into this?

Enlighten me.

gunner
 
Probably the same that any sick religious freak does.
From any religion.
AKA crusaders, koresh et el.


As I've said before these cunts aren't cunts because they are Muslim/Christian/Jew/whatever.

They are Muslim/Christian/Jew/whatever 'cos they're cunts.
 
gunneradt said:
yes but only the muslim faith seems to spawn suicide bombers - unless you include japanese kamikaze bombers.

gunner

...and the other religious organisations and cults (including those that thought death meant space travel) who have volunteered/been forced to commit mass suicide. Alright, not bombers as such, but clearly suicide is involved.
 
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