who is responsible for the London attacks?

[Larry O'Hara]

Not Quite

Right. So 'a bomb factory' was found in a house, not necessarily their house (they didn't live together for a start, anyway), or any of their houses. Also this report mentions no explosives being found; and if you remember the 'ricin factory' that never was you should be keen to notice these differences.

As has been noted, these guys weren't capable of making high explosives, so they would have had no place in a 'bomb factory' anyway.

So all we have are four ordinary guys who people knew as ordinary guys, who were 'just going down to London with some mates'. Everything about this fits the profile of a false-flag operation.

1) While it is true the 'ricin factory' was a set-up, nonetheless it doesn't follow necessarily that this is. Wouldn't one be prudent & try to ensure a bomb-making factory was not in one's own home??

2) It may well be these guys couldn't make bombs--however until it is known what exactly some of them did while visiting Pakistan in the last year or so, difficult to be sure. That said, it does seem likely they would have had help, ideological, physical, financial & technical. Help could point to a network, not necessarily the secret state.

3) I'm not sure how 'four ordinary guys' going down to LOndon connotes a false flag operation, especially when they were captured on CCTV with ruck-sacks at Kings Cross. Or are you saying they were carrying large packed lunches??

4) To me, a false flag operation would be no ID & important clues leading back to the state. In other words those carrying out the op would not be sincere, or what they seem. Sadly, these four young men seem to be--on current evidence. If the evidence changes, then so will my viewpoint.

5) I would certainly not rule out the four having been inspired & advised by people with dodgy state connections, but again we need evidence for that.

6) Have just noticed in another post you have sauid this is a 'new type of suicide bomber'. No, it is the known type of suicide bomber, carried out in Western Europe for the first time. Are you implying these four were not carrying bombs? Or were they hit by invisible missiles fired by low-flying aircraft in the tube carriages??

It is a crying shame, and true, that the activities of those who a priori in the absence of evidence declare everything like these bombings to be state operations make it vastly more difficult for those of us who are committed to uncovering genuine instances of state malfeasance. Whether by accident or design is, as they say, an interesting question...

 

[kyser_soze]

I didn't realised you guys had started to develop your own language to furnish your own version of reality.

But seriously it really is amazing to watch your unfolding reaction to events. I've never seen conspiraloons in the wild in real time, fascinating stuff. Maybe Bill Oddie should do a show on it or something.

I'm assuming your not including the more sensible replies on this thread in that somewhat blanket statement Diamond!

Generally speaking I'm inclined toward believing that while the 'grunts' of modern Islamic terrorism are doing it as a result of the social deprivation reasons, coupled with anti-Western indoctrination, the nominal 'leaders', or 'managers' are doing it for power - religion is an incredibly powerful force, and rhetorical flourishes about a clash of civilisations coupled with a ready pool of potential resources to be used PLUS a very doctrinal faith...

 

[laptop]

Why not claim it was done by psychotic elephants?

Remember, if you see an elephant on the tube, ask whether those bags belong to it.

Don't desecrate its graveyard, though.

 

[Jazzz]

In any sense? You mean they were using someone else's house?

I don't see that they were 'using' anyone's house for anything.

 

[kyser_soze]

Maybe Dr J is right after all!!!

My own little CT...

 

[Diamond]

I'm assuming your not including the more sensible replies on this thread in that somewhat blanket statement Diamond!

Generally speaking I'm inclined toward believing that while the 'grunts' of modern Islamic terrorism are doing it as a result of the social deprivation reasons, coupled with anti-Western indoctrination, the nominal 'leaders', or 'managers' are doing it for power - religion is an incredibly powerful force, and rhetorical flourishes about a clash of civilisations coupled with a ready pool of potential resources to be used PLUS a very doctrinal faith...

I'm quoting Dr.Jazzz in that post. That should make it pretty self-explanatory.

Anyway what did you make of my earlier post re hatred vs. history?

 

[kyser_soze]

I'm quoting Dr.Jazzz in that post. That should make it pretty self-explanatory.

Anyway what did you make of my earlier post re hatred vs. history?

Inclined to agree with the hatred thesis more, but not exclusively.

There probably are a lot of people out there with a really keen sense of history who could found their hatred on what's happened - and I certainly wouldn't downplay the role Israel may well have had in this as a possible cause, but for my money it's a play for power, dressed up in the rhetoric or history and religion by a group who are outside the mainstream of power brokers in Islamic society.

 

[editor]

It is a crying shame, and true, that the activities of those who a priori in the absence of evidence declare everything like these bombings to be state operations make it vastly more difficult for those of us who are committed to uncovering genuine instances of state malfeasance.

Sadly, that is DrJ's modus operandi.

His ludicrous MOSSAD thread, currently residing in the bin, is a perfect example of his "react and conspiraloon first/research later" approach.

 

[TeeJay]

There's plenty to suggest it TeeJay - it fits the profile perfectly.

What "profile"? You have your own list of previous "false flag" attacks do you? I am slightly reluctant to ask you to list them...

We have a spurious and unverifiable claim of responsibility from an unknown group based around a man whose family thinks he is dead, on a server in Houston.

We can ignore this. It doesn't add anything to 'CIA' guilt. It is pretty obvious who carried the bombs to London.

Then we hear that the bombers committed suicide. They had no reason to; and normal fanatic would still rather live and get off at the station before his bomb goes off than blow himself up. This is a new type of 'suicide bomber'.

A "normal fanatic"? WTF? In any case there have been several previous British suicide bombers - Richard Reid and the other one who gave himself up, the two guys who went to Israel and someone who went to Iraq.

Then we hear (surprise, surprise!) that the bombers were known to their community as perfectly ordinary guys. This doesn't happen normally - when someone does something terrible and the neighbours are interviewed they always used to say 'well he kept himself to himself' and 'we had no idea'. You don't have their friends coming out and saying 'he was just a kid who liked cricket and worked in his family's chip shop, no interest in politics and there is no way he could have been involved in extremism'. It's nonsense!

This happens all the time with murderers and terrorists - to people around them they appear nice and normal, not raving lunatics or spitting hate. Why should someone planning an attack what to attract attention to themselves? Why would they talk about it with people around them?

In any case none of this shows "CIA guilt".

You are creating stories out of thin air.

 

[editor]

Then we hear (surprise, surprise!) that the bombers were known to their community as perfectly ordinary guys. This doesn't happen normally - when someone does something terrible and the neighbours are interviewed they always used to say 'well he kept himself to himself' and 'we had no idea'.

Let me get this straight: are you really asserting that all murderers always "keep themselves to themselves" and then projecting that (wholly inaccurate) assumption as the basis for another of your conspiraloon fact-free flights of fancy?

 

[Dilzybhoy]

I'm not following you Dr J. The thing is it looks like they manually set the bombs off themselves.
Why?
'Cos the first three bombs went off at the same time. Like they planned it. What they didn't know was that the fourth fella wasn't going to be in position at the pre-planned time. So he goes off to find somewhere else to set the bomb off with maximum casualties.
Nearly an hour later he's on a Bus and detonates the bomb.
You see if the bombs were timed then they all would have went off at the same time.
I may be wrong but it's more plausible than a "false flag" theory.

 

[pk]

Right. So 'a bomb factory' was found in a house, not necessarily their house (they didn't live together for a start, anyway), or any of their houses. Also this report mentions no explosives being found; and if you remember the 'ricin factory' that never was you should be keen to notice these differences.

As has been noted, these guys weren't capable of making high explosives, so they would have had no place in a 'bomb factory' anyway.

So all we have are four ordinary guys who people knew as ordinary guys, who were 'just going down to London with some mates'. Everything about this fits the profile of a false-flag operation.

Oh, yeah, so obviously it was Tony Blair wot done it, right "Dr" Jazzz?

Jesus H Christ you're such a desperate twat that it is actually funny to watch.

 

[editor]

I may be wrong but it's more plausible than a "false flag" theory.

Frankly, the Moon being made of cheese is more plausible than some of DrJ's theories.

 

[scawenb]

On the BBC this morning they sent a radio reporter to the streets in Leeds where some of those involved came from. He hit upon some green graffiti with the word HAMAS and suggested that it indicated a wider feeling.

What on earth is the connection between Hamas and the attack in London?

 

[kyser_soze]

Probably no actual 'connection', maybe simply someone using a word they associate with Islamic struggle?

 

[laptop]

What on earth is the connection between Hamas and the attack in London?

Scary.

Er, that's about it.

 

[tarannau]

This is getting a little embarrassing and tragic really. Dr J's a hell of a nice guy, but if I didn't know him I'd suspect that either he was on a ginormous wind-up or suffering from increasingly delusional behaviour.

Add this sorry thread to Dr J's past blind belief in Joe Viallis loopy theories, his swallowing of anti-immunisation claptrap, his adamant view that invisible missiles and controlled explosions hit the WTC, his (wrongful) cries that Huntley was innocent, the latest MOSSAD nonsense. Oh, and the bloke even fell hook, line and sinker for the Penta Water nonsense - commonly thought to be one of the most laughable 'bad science' scams that there is. Buying 'extra hydrating' water for christsakes...

Joshing aside, his delusions are getting worse rather than better. Everything's becoming a consipiracy to him, regardless of the real world facts...

 

[Dilzybhoy]

Frankly, the Moon being made of cheese is more plausible than some of DrJ's theories.

Yeah well I was trying to understate it to emphasise it.
If you know what I mean.
There's a word for it which escapes me...

 

[elbows]

I didn't realised you guys had started to develop your own language to furnish your own version of reality.

The term false flag has not been invented by comspiraloons, its origins can be found in conventional warfare.

However just because the concept/strategy has existed occasionally in the past, doesnt tell us anything about whether its true in this case.

 

[Jazzz]

Let me get this straight: are you really asserting that all murderers always "keep themselves to themselves" and then projecting that (wholly inaccurate) assumption as the basis for another of your conspiraloon fact-free flights of fancy?

What I am saying is that you don't have fanatical religious extremists whose mates, after they die, will come out and say 'he was a sound bloke who liked a game of cricket with no interest in politics'. This is absurd!

 

[TeeJay]

I'm not following you Dr J. The thing is it looks like they manually set the bombs off themselves.
Why?
'Cos the first three bombs went off at the same time. Like they planned it. What they didn't know was that the fourth fella wasn't going to be in position at the pre-planned time. So he goes off to find somewhere else to set the bomb off with maximum casualties.
Nearly an hour later he's on a Bus and detonates the bomb.
You see if the bombs were timed then they all would have went off at the same time.
I may be wrong but it's more plausible than a "false flag" theory.

I am willing to consider the *possibility* that some of the bombers were not fully clued up about the bombs they were carrying. It has been mentioned that the bombs had timers - why would they need timers if they were going to manually detonate them?*** I think it is *possible* that they weren't told that the bombs would explode immediately when armed - maybe they thought they were on their way to plant them at targets across London?

There are all sorts of variations on this theme - one of the timers was set wrong, it was reset or whatever.

Maybe even some of the young Saudi hijackers on 9/11 also thought they were just doing an ordinary hijacking, not a suicide mission (obviously not the actual pilots - who incidentally were older and 'known')? Maybe the young British guy who failed to detonate his bomb in Israel but was later found dead was killed by his 'handler' to make sure he wasn't captured and told people who had set everything up?

However, although these are *possibilities* we really don't have any evidence either way, and none of these scenarios points to CIA or MI6 or Mossad etc. They only point to Al-Qaeda type networks exploiting young and naive 'footsoldiers'.

***edit: Actually I have just read that no timers have been found, suggesting the boimbs were detonated by hand.

 

[TeeJay]

What I am saying is that you don't have fanatical religious extremists whose mates, after they die, will come out and say 'he was a sound bloke who liked a game of cricket with no interest in politics'. This is absurd!

But hadn't these guys gone off to study in religious schools in Pakistan?

Maybe he was a cricket-loving lad with no obvious political and relgious feelings before he went. Maybe he decided while in Pakistan that he had found the meaning he was looking for in his life - then came back and kept his plans secret?

The thing is DrJazzz, you are basing all this on next to no real information, aren't you? Just snippets in the media so far, nothing more.

 

[audiotech]

Its a term that is used - that has no meaning or quantifiablility whatsoever.

Read it as 'The bad guys'

It translates as 'database' apparently.

 

[Dilzybhoy]

I am willing to consider the *possibility* that some of the bombers were not fully clued up about the bombs they were carrying. It has been mentioned that the bombs had timers - why would they need timers if they were going to manually detonate them? I think it is *possible* that they weren't told that the bombs would explode immediately when armed - maybe they thought they were on their way to plant them at targets across London?

There are all sorts of variations on this theme - one of the timers was set wrong, it was reset or whatever.

Maybe even some of the young Saudi hijackers on 9/11 also thought they were just doing an ordinary hijacking, not a suicide mission (obviously not the actual pilots - who incidentally were older and 'known')? Maybe the young British guy who failed to detonate his bomb in Israel but was later found dead was killed by his 'handler' to make sure he wasn't captured and told people who had set everything up?

However, although these are *possibilities* we really don't have any evidence either way, and none of these scenarios points to CIA or MI6 or Mossad etc. They only point to Al-Qaeda type networks exploiting young and naive 'footsoldiers'.

MMm.
I read somewhere that some of the hijackers did indeed think that they were NOT on a suicide mission.
With the London Bombers I don't think that there's much doubt that the fourth fella surely had some idea about what was happening. It was nearly an hour later that his bomb went off.
It seems that the line he was supposed to go on was not in service at the time so he goes off and sets the bomb off on the bus.
Of course your right that we don't have enough evidence to prove anything yet.
Incidentally, do we know if the bombs had timers or not.

 

[Rua]

What I am saying is that you don't have fanatical religious extremists whose mates, after they die, will come out and say 'he was a sound bloke who liked a game of cricket with no interest in politics'. This is absurd!

Rubbish.

More than a couple of kids I went to school with ended up in jail for nefarious activities associated with the IRA.
None of us had an inkling.
In some cases, no one was more shocked than the families themselves.

Funnily enough, it was always the ones who blared on about their support for the RA who ended up as accountants voting for Fine Gael.

 

[gentlegreen]

Incidentally, do we know if the bombs had timers or not.

no timers apparently

 

[laptop]

Incidentally, do we know whether the bombs had timers or not.

All I'm aware of is contradictory reports.

Someone, somewhere, is sieving through all the fragments collected from the scenes of crime looking for bits of bomb... it's going to take a while.

 

[gentlegreen]

I don't have the figures, but don't young men commit suicide at an alarming rate in any case.

 

[TeeJay]

Incidentally, do we know if the bombs had timers or not.

Actually I have just read that no timers have been found:

"Police sources have told the BBC they had not recovered any timing devices from the bomb scenes, possibly indicating that detonation was by hand" http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4676861.stm

 

[oi2002]

When I got home tonight I saw a couple of interviews with friends of the families who knew the bombers. I think the interviews took place in Leeds. One on CNN and one on american public television. I really felt awful for these guys. They were clearly shocked and angered by what happened. The also had admiration for Britian. They were solid British Pakistanis, one even spoke of the queen.

They had obviously come to Britian and made a solid life for themselves and their familes.

I hope this is a one off, and they can get on with their lives.

I've talked to a couple of British Pakistanis and they are simply devastated. One of the awful things about the lure of the Jihad in Europe is it's often the 2nd or even 3rd generation were it finds its appeal. Kids whose parents assimilated well feeling they are not one thing or another look back to the old country for identity, like a Canadian developing a sudden taste for tartan wallpaper. But for these guys getting sucked into this cultish stuff is a risk.

It doesn't help that the old multi-cultural British identity is vanishing in England, the George Cross replacing the Union Jack. Like being American the British identity was available to anyone and it was an easy thing for immigrants to wear.