London Underground Bombing 'Exercises' Took Place at Same Time as Real Attack

[bigfish]

So, not much of a conspiracy then if he's blabbing the details on live TV then?

So, what's your point? I've just watched the clip.

So his company was running an exercise around about the same time as the attacks at locations that were "nearly" precisely the same as where the bombs hit.So what?

Again, what am I supposed to be seeing here that's unusual?

Personally, it all seem far too pat and well rehearsed to me. This ex-Scotland Yard counter-terrorism wonk running around repeating the same story to different media, is too good to be true. Given his career form, one would think that he has to be well and truly on-side as far as the British State is concerned. So, why is he blabbing his mouth off all over the gaff, unless it's okay by the State for him to be doing it? Something is wrong - a snippet of information to plant a seed perhaps and nothing to follow-up - he's probably supposed to dip down out of sight now while the media drown us in even more baloney.

I took a look through the Visor teamsheat earlier where I came across this rather interesting CV: Visor Consultants Media Skills Consultant: Kathryn Holloway

Kathryn Holloway has worked continuously as a broadcaster and journalist since 1983.

In 2005 she joined Visor as our Media Skills Consultant.

As a television reporter she covered stories for news services such as ITN, TV-am, Sky News and Tyne Tees Television, reporting from crisis scenes including the Lockerbie explosion, Piper Alpha oil platform blaze and the Zeebrugge disaster. As a presenter, she has anchored live national news, breakfast and daytime television, terrestrially and on satellite, as well as radio news discussion shows for both LBC and Talk Radio. She continues to write national news features, principally for The Daily and Sunday Express.

As an advisor in the release of public information and a media trainer, she is part of the Civil Contingencies Secretariat and delivers media solutions for the Cabinet Office, MOD, Department of Trade and Industry and City of London Police. She recreates the key external pressure of the media in business continuity exercises including the Army's national civil emergency simulations.

Kathryn also provides Crisis Communications Media Plans to increase the preparedness of your organisation at every level.

 

[Lock&Light]

Wow. only three days for the theories to start. That has to be some sort of record.

It's even worse than that, Johnny. Dr. Jazzz already started (an offensively titled) thread on Thursday before the morning was out.

 

[squeegee]

They're NOT accusing "Arabs" - what a stupid thing to say. They're suggesting it's probably a terrorist cell either directly instructed by or inspired by AQ. Which makes sense seeing as this attack follows the pattern of Madrid, Bali, New York etc.

What exactly is this pattern? Soft targets (the general public) and explosives used. Well let's put two and two together. It must be the work of Al-Qaeda.

How is this anything other than speculation? Where is the proof? Why is this speculation acceptable while others that don't conform to the party line deemed fruitloop, conspiraloon or otherwise?

"suggesting it's probably a terrorist cell". I'd call that evidence-untroubled, wouldn't you? No conclusions can be drawn by ANYONE, only suspicions. I know where my suspicions lie.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

DrJazzz, Read your quote again.

we based our scenario on the simultaneous attacks on the London Underground and mainline station. So we had to suddenly switch an exercise from fictional to real, and one of the first things is, get that bureau number, when you have a list of people missing, tell them. And it was a long time...

Interviewer: "Just to get this right: you were actually working today on an exercise that envisioned virtually this scenario?"

Power: "Almost precisely.

Scenario is not what you are taking it to mean, the scenario he's describing is a rush hour multiple bomb attack on the tube and mainline london public transport system, not the places attacked.

If you still need me or others to put two and two together here then i'm going to give up with you.

The stations were different, Powers said so in the same interview you're using as a source.

 

[detective-boy]

Power: [... and the most peculiar thing was, we based our scenario on the simultaneous attacks on the London Underground and mainline station. So we had to suddenly switch an exercise from fictional to real, and one of the first things is, get that bureau number, when you have a list of people missing, tell them.

I note you have added an to station. By my listening he said station. That would be far more likely - an exercise based on a simultaneous attack on tube and mainline at the station near the clients premises. I still think he is using poetic licence and would love to see what his actual scenario was.

Power: "Almost precisely. I was up until two o'clock this morning because - it's our job; my own company, Visor Consultants, we specialise in helping people to get their crisis management response , how do you jump from slow-time thinking to quick-time doing. And we chose a scenario, with their assistance, which was based on a terrorist attack, because they're very close to a property occupied by Jewish businessmen, they're in the city, and there are more American Banks in the city than there are in the whole of New York... a logical thing to do!

And the first line of this (my bolding) explains why - how much would such prime-time advertising to worried potential clients cost????

And there is absolutely nothing to suggest his audience were involved in the actual response at all - it just meant that instead of having to pretend that something had happened which may affect their staff, etc. they had a real-life situation to deal with and so, instead of running an exercise, they actually put into place their in-house response in a real incident with the benefit of the fantastic Mr Power on hand.

You, BigFish and others are still reading FAR too much into this.

 

[steeplejack]

Wow. only three days for the theories to start. That has to be some sort of record.

Try about half an hour before Dr J's first breathless conspiracy-alluding thread in UK P&P.

 

[editor]

You, BigFish and others are still reading FAR too much into this.

I'd put money on it.

So a private security advisory firm just happened to be running a private exercise for companies in the area on the day.

So fucking what?

The current scramble by a few obsessed posters to post up these wild fact free conspiracy theories is fucking sick.

 

[happie chappie]

An attack under the cover of an "exercise"

If one dismisses, as one must, the possibility that this was mere 'coincidence' then there has to be some link. The sinister point about the 'exercise' is that it enables people to carry out the attack itself, while thinking they are simply carrying out the exercise.

No - the kind of exercises Visor runs are not primarily about the attack itself, but about how a business (as opposed to the emergency services) responds, and keeps operating at something close to normality. Look at the "business continuity" part of Visor's web site.

Where the bombs are placed (ie, in what stations, at what times etc) are just a scenario, setting the scene to allow managers to think through their responses. These kind of exercises do not involve someone going to the trouble of planting dummy bombs - it would be a waste of time (as well as being dangerous, and possibly/probably illegal). No-one carries out a simulated attack on the transport system in such exercises, so they can't be "tricked" into carrying out a real one.

Btw, according to the Independent on Sunday yesterday (pg 11), the experts who formulate and co-ordinate the NHS response to major disasters was meeting at the London Ambulance Service HQ on the very day, and at the very time, of last Thursday's attacks - discussing the emergency services' reponse to an exercise they ran "simulating four terrorist bombs going off at once across London".

Obviously, they were all in on "the conspiracy" as well.

Happie Chappie

 

[editor]

Btw, according to the Independent on Sunday yesterday (pg 11), the experts who formulate and co-ordinate the NHS response to major disasters was meeting at the London Ambulance Service HQ on the very day, and at the very time, of last Thursday's attacks - discussing the emergency services' reponse to an exercise they ran "simulating four terrorist bombs going off at once across London".

Obviously, they were all in on "the conspiracy" as well.

I do hope DrJ et al have the honesty to apologise for posting up their fact-free, filthy fruitloop fantasies on this thread because I've found their desperate scramble to manufacture a conspiraloon theory based on zero evidence deeply repugnant.

 

[DexterTCN]

Bit of an over-reaction there Ed.

The Radio 5 interview was extremely interesting and one does have to accept that the coincidence is not only remarkable, it is unique.

Coupled with the sites of detonation it is reasonable for people to speculate at such things, and it is certainly not fruitloop to hypothesize with such singular events.

I would encourage debate and reasoned argument at such times. The last thing this country needs is to go the way of America where 'both sides' hate each other with a venom they can hardly muster for 'the enemy'.

 

[laptop]

The Radio 5 interview was extremely interesting and one does have to accept that the coincidence is not only remarkable, it is unique.

No one doesn't. As far as I'm concerned, there's no more of a coincidence here than there is a coincidence in the fact that the bombings happened while there were lots of British Transport police out and about ready to deal with it - because that happens every day, too.

I've produced my estimates of the background incidence of such "exercises" - essential data in assessing whether there's anything remarkable happening.

They're approximate. If you want to argue there is a coincidence, over to you to come up with a different figure.

 

[editor]

Bit of an over-reaction there Ed.

The Radio 5 interview was extremely interesting and one does have to accept that the coincidence is not only remarkable, it is unique.

Coupled with the sites of detonation it is reasonable for people to speculate at such things, and it is certainly not fruitloop to hypothesize with such singular events.

It is fruitloop to go off on a series of wild, wild speculation without bothering to source a single shred of credible background evidence first.

For all we know, this 'exercise' could have involved nothing more than a swivel action suit showing a PowerPoint meeting in an office - yet DrJ has already span out a fucking ludicrous yarn about how people involved in the exercise may have been planting pretend bombs only to find that they were real. Dreamt up with no evidence and no research.

And how come no one's going on about the NHS meeting where - at the very same time of last Thursday's attacks - they were discussing the emergency services' response to an exercise they ran "simulating four terrorist bombs going off at once across London"?

Why isn't that attracting a similar level of excietement seeing as it is every bit as coincidental.

 

[DexterTCN]

I'm not here to support any arguments. I am saying that it is a remarkable coincidence, the bus outside the BMA is laughably so.

The gereralgist of what I was saying is that it is better to discuss than to seperate into all of your oh-so-boringly-predictable little clans to go through all the oh-so-boringly-predictably-personal arguments again.

As for your challenge on 'coincidence'...I stand by what I said. It is a remarkable one. However I'm not sure if you are denying that it was a coincidence, or denying there was something more to it than coincidence.

 

[editor]

As for your challenge on 'coincidence'...I stand by what I said. It is a remarkable one. However I'm not sure if you are denying that it was a coincidence, or denying there was something more to it than coincidence.

Do you find the NHS meeting co-incidental too?

 

[DexterTCN]

Ed. In answer to your points, the trouble is that you take every opportunity to attack other posters. (not a specific allegation against you)

I am not taking sides in this, for me it is quite obvious that it was an attack against the UK for its role in the Middle East over the last 60 years or so but more specifically for our current role.

The fact is that you don't know any more or any less than Dr Jazz, and you're both just going to end up having the same fucking argument you have every month with each other, with all the other usual suspects lined up behind already defined lines....the insults are already flying and the others will be arriving shortly no doubt.

A period of grace where people could say what they think for a few weeks would be the least you could do. It's not just your country you know, we all live here - and fuck me! - we all continue to live here and get on with it.

As time goes on and more information comes out, opinions will change or adapt. But such a short time from the attack is not when you should be ready to tear each other's throats out.

Same to Dr Jazz btw.

 

[DexterTCN]

Do you find the NHS meeting co-incidental too?

]
For fucks sake man!

coincidence:- An event that might have been arranged although it was really accidental

So yes...I do!

 

[Badger Kitten]

As Ed says, this is not the place for conspiralunacy. This website has proved extremely helpful for me and lots of other people and I would have thought that there was quite enough excitement and drama going on with the bombings having happened without idiots posting hysterical tales. There were many coincidences on Thursday and it is natural to try to make sense of senseless events by looking for narratives and explanations and portents and signs. The emergency services, the politicians, crisis advisers had all prepared for multiple bomb attacks on public transport.

That's their job and it's not at all surprising that they have practised and prepared for it.

It would help if people kept calm and instead of frothing about conspiracies realised that what has happened was shocking and senseless and evil enough. If people want to do something useful, they can:

1. Give blood. A useful thing to do at any time.
2. Take a first aid course.
3. Make sure you always carry a mobile and that people have an idea where you are. It was terrible to see the distress of those searching for the missing.
4. Take time out to think how you would react in a frightening situation. Mentally preparing yourself helps. I had been in a life/death situation before and had 'frozen' with fear and shock. Afterwards I took self defence courses, worked on my fitness and practiced yoga breathing and self-calming techniques, I also took a first aid course. The second time a crisis happened, Thursday, all of these skills proved useful.
5. Enjoy your life and don't worry too much about conspiracies and speculation. Getting on with things nornally helps everyone else. Panic and mistrust are terrorist's weapons. By behaving in a respectful and friendly way towards your humans you are helping.

 

[girasol]

On a more practical note, couple of things I think will be useful to always take on a tube journey:

a mini-fan, battery operated
bottle of water

I'd imagine a lot of security alerts (mostly false) will be happening for the next few weeks, so a lot of people will be stuck in tunnels down there. These, of course, are the things I'd occasionally take down on a hot summer's day, but from now on I'll always make sure I have them...

 

[ska invita]

editor - whats sickening?

I appreciate that this thread comes as the latest episode of the running battle that is DrJ vs Editor - it must have been going on two/three years now - I imagine that editor is particularly keen to stamp out anything that could be called conspiratory in order to uphold a percieved integrity for what is ultimately his web site. Hence emotions are high.

Whilst you may find what has been posted on this thread (no outright accusation has been made on this thread that I have read - rather an investigation into a coincidence and a thoughtfull look at what else needs to be understood to be certain of no wrongdoing) as "sickening" I would like to remind you of what I find truly sickening: the history and actions of UK governments (in no particular order)- how can you trust your government for one second:

-the UK has precedent for letting of bombs and blaming others for it: declasified files which have passed their forty year quarantine show how secret service plants bombs and blame others in order to achieve foreign policy objectives, from the middle east to africa -on other occasions it doesnt even blame others, such as in Kenya in the fifities where the bombing on civilian tragets was official policy

-the amount of lies told in this war is staggering and relentless: didnt you see Colin Powel at the UN? Didnt you witness the whitewash inquiries? The invention of the Al-Qaeda myth is well documented, as are the real policy aims of American foreign policy, and therefore UK foreign policy... perhpas this deception is "old news" now, and doesn't "sicken" you anymore...it does me - countless people are dying as a result

-Overnight 46 more died in Iraq, 1500 have dies in the last two months: an enoromous death toll for which our government is responsible... barely a mention on the news for any of it (the media yesterday showed footage of an afghan army training video whilst speculating about who the bombers were: classic propaganda.) News of Iraqi deaths may not be as upsetting to you because it is aaaallll the way in Iraq, but to me it as upsetting, if not more, than the bombings in London, because it is our democraticaly elected and funded government that is responsible for the situation. - Breaking UN law on war and unporovoked agression may seem a trifling matter to some, but it "sickens" me daily, as the bodies of the innocents pile up.

You may have experienced some shock on thursday morning to hear of the bombs, and feel that this is some sacred moment when any possible investigation into government lying and agression to achieve foreign policy goals is outlawed, but for some of us not living in a bubble, this is another daily tragedy, another daily death toll enacted on the innocent because of the greed and power struggles of the state, and it makes me sick to my stomach.

You may have faith that the government is doing all it can against some unseen enemy, but I do not - the opposite, I do not trust the US and UK governments to care one bit for the lives of any innocent, British, American or Iraqi. They will, and have, killed whoever they have to in order to actualise foreign objectives.

Why do I come to that conclusion?
Because of some childish delusions about conspiracy?
No - because the facts of history shows that there is no action too low for our governments to achieve their objectives - they've murdered before, they're murdering now, and they'll murder again wake up

-You may feel it is not a polite moment to look at government activities, but look around you, the USUK are engaged in a world war - two countries invaded in a two year window - billions upon billions of dollars invested in foreign policy objectives - tens of thousands of innocents dead, murdered in cold blood - let me know when its a polite time to dare to even investigate any possible government wrong doing won't you.

 

[editor]

Ed. In answer to your points, the trouble is that you take every opportunity to attack other posters.

I think you'll find that allegation is both offensive and provably untrue. I make thousands of post without attacking anyone.

I do, however, aim to protect this site from gaining the reputation as a site where conspiraloons can post up any bonkers old bullshit they like without being challenged.

I have repeatedly stated that I did NOT set these boards up as a one-stop repository for web-sourced, fact-free conspiracy tales and get annoyed that a handful of conspiracy-obsessed posters refuse to respect that decision.

Take a look around the web and the newsgroups and see what happens to sites where this sort of conspiraloon nonsense is accepted. The sites become a laughing stock, attracting fresh loons desperate for the oxygen of publicity. If you ever saw DrJ's short-lived conspiracy forums you'll know exactly what I mean.

Now, I'm not against intelligent speculation, but time and time again we get completely fact free 'stories' slapped up here where the poster hasn't made the slightest effort to research or verify the highly improbably conspirayarn.

This thread is a perfect example, with DrJ making claims about there being a "1,000 experts" involved in this exercise which - if I'm not mistaken - no one actually knows anything about.

Despite that, niksativa has already declared that there could be only one of two possible conclusions to be read into the event (one of which is a totally fact-untroubled conspiraloon odyssey, natch) while bigfish has also opined - from a position of utter ignorance - that it all seems " far too pat and well rehearsed" for him.

A period of grace where people could say what they think for a few weeks would be the least you could do.

A period of grace where people bother to undertake some basic research and compile some evidence before posting up wild, unsubstantiated conspiratorial claims would be preferable, actually.

 

[slaar]

This thread has nothing to do with foreign policy, it has everything to do with two coincidences that are, in statistical terms, highly insignificant and the attempt from these highly insignificant events to thread together some sort of narrative on the events, based purely on these insignificant events.

That's just lazy thinking, and disrespectful to boot. If you want points on foreign policy to be taken seriously, as they deserve to be, probably best to start a new thread.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Fuck the conspiraloons......

At a time when we should be holding our Govts to account for what they have led us into they persist in postulating a load of bollocks that acts as 'man made interference' to genuine investigations into Governmental activities that affect everyone. they are the web equivilant of jamming a radio channel with stupid noises to prevent serious messages getting through.

I'm sick of the tinfoil hatter and chemtrails bollocks. I would trust information a lot more if it didn't come from sites like Prison planet which quite frankly contains even fewer provable facts that the Daily Star.

 

[Jazzz]

I note you have added an to station. By my listening he said station. That would be far more likely - an exercise based on a simultaneous attack on tube and mainline at the station near the clients premises.

He did say station, but I don't think that makes grammatical sense, I think he said station to match Underground. Of course (do note Bob the Lost) King's Cross and Liverpool St. are both underground and mainline stations.

I still think he is using poetic licence and would love to see what his actual scenario was.

Having thought about it, I accept the possibility that his scenario included another station(s). And I'm entirely with you with wanting to see what his scenario was.

And the first line of this (my bolding) explains why - how much would such prime-time advertising to worried potential clients cost????

And there is absolutely nothing to suggest his audience were involved in the actual response at all - it just meant that instead of having to pretend that something had happened which may affect their staff, etc. they had a real-life situation to deal with and so, instead of running an exercise, they actually put into place their in-house response in a real incident with the benefit of the fantastic Mr Power on hand.

Yes, the second interview has clarified the nature of Power's gig somewhat. Still we have what is certainly a remarkable coincidence, and I'd love to know what this exercise involved.

 

[Jazzz]

And how come no one's going on about the NHS meeting where - at the very same time of last Thursday's attacks - they were discussing the emergency services' response to an exercise they ran "simulating four terrorist bombs going off at once across London"?

Why isn't that attracting a similar level of excietement seeing as it is every bit as coincidental.

Well this is the first I've heard of it, editor. I'd appreciate a link, if it's true, then even you must admit that the coincidences are blazing out into utterly staggering territory.

...was everyone running an exercise which predicted the actual events on Thursday?

(great post niksativa btw)

 

[editor]

And I'm entirely with you with wanting to see what his scenario was.

Have you got in touch with his company to clarify the situation, or do you intend to to continue your evidence-free "claim-first/think-second" conspiraloon fantasies here, unhindered from any actual research as usual?

 

[happie chappie]

Link to NHS emergency planning meeting on Thursday

Well this is the first I've heard of it, editor. I'd appreciate a link, if it's true, then even you must admit that the coincidences are blazing out into utterly staggering territory.

...was everyone running an exercise which predicted the actual events on Thursday?

Here's the link:

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article298112.ece

scroll down to the section dealing with the events of 9.10 am, second para


Happie Chappie

 

[dormouse]

...2. Someone had know it was going to happen, but wanted the aftermath to be dealt with as efficiently and thoroughly as possible, so had hired what must be the leading tube disaster management expert and provided him with outlines for what was about to take place*(*note: in the tv interview he says ;"we chose a scenario, with their (the employer's) assistance", which suggests that the setup was fed to his team from the employer.) - but rather than admit that they knew what was to happen, it was presented as a test run....

Why? If they knew it was going to happen, why would they be bothered about dealing with the aftermath 'efficiently and thoroughly'?

Incidentally, the morning of the Manchester bombings, Marks and Spencer were running one of their disaster recovery exercises. Do you think that means they knew about the bomb?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Today it is the turn of Julia Dent, chief executive of the South West Strategic Health Authority, to be "gold lead", the person in charge of the response of the National Health Service to any major disaster. By an extraordinary coincidence, all the experts who formulate such plans are together in a meeting at the headquarters of the London Ambulance Service - and they are discussing an exercise they ran three months ago that involved simulating four terrorist bombs going off at once across London. The order is given and hundreds of emails, text and pager messages are sent out putting the whole of the NHS across the capital on standby to receive casualties. The plan is for the worst injured to be taken to hospital by helicopter. The walking wounded will go on requisitioned double-decker buses. Ambulances begin heading towards London from the Home Counties - by lunch-time more than 100 will have responded.

this you mean....


so a debreif of an excwercise that happened 3 months ago ...


not the same as a live exercise going on at the time ....
and even more no implacication of the emergancy services being in on it...

an apology to follow from Dr Jazzz et al please...

 

[Citizen66]

I really don't see how the conspiracy theorists can jump on this one so quickly. Okay, 9/11 had disapearing planes etc etc etc but I want to be quoted on this one for future reference:

Some of my colleagues have been clearing out space in one of LULs buildings today and the badly damaged carriages from thursday's tragedy are expected to arrive there sometime this week. I'll no doubt pass them myself as some of my duties are regularly in that area.

Just in case anyone thinks that MI5 have already crushed the evidence and scattered it in the Thames, like.

 

[editor]

Why? If they knew it was going to happen, why would they be bothered about dealing with the aftermath 'efficiently and thoroughly'?

Exactly. It defies all rational logic.