kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Ahh, so because they agree with you they're obviously correct and it was a put-up job by the government eh, Jazz?
August terror plot denounced as 'fiction'
- Thread starter Jazzz
- Start date
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Isn't it amazing.
When bombs don't go off, it's the government leading us on.
When they do go off, it's the government conspiring to make it happen directly or indirectly.
And yet when the Pope takes ONE QUOTE from 700 years ago in a lecture that actually had the theme that religions have more in common than differences, and that rationality is the enemy not other faiths, and the Muslim world reacts by saying 'We're a peace loving religion, and if you say otherwise we'll kick your asses', it's yet another example of 'righteous' Muslim anger and the 'War on Islam' that, despite ALL the angry rhetoric of the Islamic world, not a SINGLE Muslim has tried to fight back against, since 9/11, 7/7, Bali etc were ALL put up jobs by Western Governments. And obviously, Islam is truly a completely pussy faith, filled with idiots because, lets face it, they could never conspire to make bombs.
Are conspiracy types unconciously racist? Or are they suffering from serious cognitive dissonance with the doublethink required to maintain their position?
When bombs don't go off, it's the government leading us on.
When they do go off, it's the government conspiring to make it happen directly or indirectly.
And yet when the Pope takes ONE QUOTE from 700 years ago in a lecture that actually had the theme that religions have more in common than differences, and that rationality is the enemy not other faiths, and the Muslim world reacts by saying 'We're a peace loving religion, and if you say otherwise we'll kick your asses', it's yet another example of 'righteous' Muslim anger and the 'War on Islam' that, despite ALL the angry rhetoric of the Islamic world, not a SINGLE Muslim has tried to fight back against, since 9/11, 7/7, Bali etc were ALL put up jobs by Western Governments. And obviously, Islam is truly a completely pussy faith, filled with idiots because, lets face it, they could never conspire to make bombs.
Are conspiracy types unconciously racist? Or are they suffering from serious cognitive dissonance with the doublethink required to maintain their position?
Anyone else who might have been connected with themJazzz said:
"None of the alleged terrorists had made a bomb. None had bought a plane ticket. Many did not even have passports, which given the efficiency of the UK Passport Agency would mean they couldn't be a plane bomber for quite some time.
In the absence of bombs and airline tickets, and in many cases passports, it could be pretty difficult to convince a jury beyond reasonable doubt that individuals intended to go through with suicide bombings, whatever rash stuff they may have bragged in internet chat rooms.
What is more, many of those arrested had been under surveillance for over a year - like thousands of other British Muslims. And not just Muslims. Like me. Nothing from that surveillance had indicated the need for early arrests.
Then an interrogation in Pakistan revealed the details of this amazing plot to blow up multiple planes - which, rather extraordinarily, had not turned up in a year of surveillance. Of course, the interrogators of the Pakistani dictator have their ways of making people sing like canaries. As I witnessed in Uzbekistan, you can get the most extraordinary information this way....."
FFS, Jazzz, do you ever read people's posts? Ever? Even once, read them, take on board what someone says and engage in debate with them?
Do I need to spell this out in more simple terms for you to actually deign to respond?TeeJay said:
Here:
1. The UK suspects were charged with concrete offences. Unfortunately police had to cut their surveillance short due to the Pakistan arrest.
2. The airline security scare was due to fears that there were possibly other teams out there who might be more advanced in their plans and capabilities.
3. Numbers 1. and 2. are related but not identical - "fears" can lead to security precautions, whereas concrete offences lead to specific arrests and charges.
Please read and respond to this before posting any more shit on this thread.
Thank you.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Would it be worth pointing out that, even if these bombs hadn't worked (which would have been really humiliating for the bombers), and even if these were sad little pricks bigging themselves up online (in which case they've only got themselves to blame), this article doesn't actually address the fact that PLANNING a NLC operation is illegal does it, and this is what will be addressed in court.
That there was this huge kerfuffle about liquids on planes etc is irrelevant really - it was probably a massive overreaction to be sure, but then as I and others have said before, the security forces are damned if they do and damed if they don't.
That there was this huge kerfuffle about liquids on planes etc is irrelevant really - it was probably a massive overreaction to be sure, but then as I and others have said before, the security forces are damned if they do and damed if they don't.
God you are on particularly rude form TeeJay. None of this in any way makes Craig Murray's piece less interesting, and I don't know quite how you describe this former ambassador's take as 'shit', but I guess that exemplifies the level of discussion to be had around here sometimes.TeeJay said:
I'm not sure there is much else to discuss here - you believe the authorities, and will make the necessary allowances so that everything they do has some kind of sense to it, despite the absence of evidence; I think this is all a load of crap.
Divisive Cotton
Now I just have my toy soldiers
Jazzz said:From our good friend Nafeez- so far ignored in the mainstream media
It's this bit that always makes me smile... hmm... wonder why...
editor
hiraethified
That'll be the same guy who mistakenly and incorrectly posted up an article accusing urban75 of 'censorship' while he actively censored all adverse comment off his own site, yes?Jazzz said:From our good friend Nafeez
And the same guy who was quick to add loving praise, backslapping comments and anonymously-sent attacks on urban75 on his site, while refusing to post up any of clarifying comments from the actual people concerned (i.e. the mods), yes?
If he can only present a case by censoring explanations and criticisms from the actual sources involved while letting anonymous, ill-informed posters distort the story with their ill-informed, agenda-laden bollocks, then forgive me if I treat anything he publishes with extreme suspicion.
I certainly don't view him as a credible source.
Divisive Cotton
Now I just have my toy soldiers
snorbury said:
tis true
Dissident Junk
picking oakum
Considering that some innocent laptops in circulation have a habit of exploding without any political grudges at all, I should think it relatively easy to build a bomb to blow up a plane - if you want to go down with it.
How cares if it is unstable or not? So it blows up when the baggage handler chucks your trunk in the hold - job done. So you blow up in duty free - job done. So it blows up when you're on the M25 on the way to Heathrow - job sort of done.
Everyone of these incidents would provoke a level of terror-driven panic.
The thing is I don't reckon these guys are very clever. After all, BL said that he never expected the TTs to fall (his father was big in construction, so he should have some fking idea about buildings) - that was an added bonus - and it don't take too many brains to stand up out of your first class seat and slit the throat of an airhostess, an then fly the plane a bit until it hits a rather tall building.
What does take skill is to blow something up, and then get away. It takes a Bond to fly the plane into a building, then parachute out before impact and land in a field next to a helicopter and jetty away to Martha's Vineyard before getting a flight back to Saudi. That's when you need clever timers, and to stalk around under cover of darkness.
The thing that makes me feel a little bit better, and also know that the 7/7 bombers were who they said they were, is that no clever, clued up, maximum impact, media-savvy shahid would have blown up the tube. Such a person would have known that such an explosion in a tightly confined place would have limited casualties and not particularly disrupt the London transport/commuting network.
Instead, the clever shahid would have planted bombs on the overground network. One on the Dartford to Charing Cross line, one on the silver link, one on a line into Kings Cross and one into Paddington. And, if they could get over their obsession with doing things in fours, one from Tonbridge into Waterloo. If they had planted them at 9:30, they'd have had more casualities than 7/7, and stranded thousands of suburban commuters in London, including a hellovalot of bankers. The city would have been a nightmare zone for days. They would not have been able to remove the wreckage, and it would have been Hatfield times five.
But they didn't. And why? Because they were lads from Leeds and Dewsbury, didn't do their research (no one else had more of a clue than they did), and simply had no idea that London had an overground network that was so highly used. They thought London only had the underground, and believe me, my home town is 30 minutes away from Dewsbury and this is what most people's experience of London is.
Think of it this way: someone intends to fly a plane into Big Ben to 'make a statement'. Now, what would happen?
I dare say some very strange things. The plane would hit Big Ben and skate along the top of the roof of Westminster, but, instead of seeing visible impact on the top, what you might find is that the impact causes the entire frontispiece of the brickwork to slide and crumble away, like someone had pulled the face off Westminster. And tinhats would say that no plane had flown into Big Ben, it was explosive devices planted at the front of the building - by the government, that exploded.
When the reason would be that, when they built Westminster, they laid the blocks the wrong way - the brickwork is completely falling apart at the front.
And if a government is going to do something like this, surely it would be a lot smarter. Jeez, the US has retired Delta that can beat Pentagon full-combat simulation programmes with a couple of RPGs. If they really wanted an excuse to invade Afghanistan and Iraq, they'd plan a assault that a lot cleaner than 9/11.
(I'm probably going to regret posting this).
How cares if it is unstable or not? So it blows up when the baggage handler chucks your trunk in the hold - job done. So you blow up in duty free - job done. So it blows up when you're on the M25 on the way to Heathrow - job sort of done.
Everyone of these incidents would provoke a level of terror-driven panic.
The thing is I don't reckon these guys are very clever. After all, BL said that he never expected the TTs to fall (his father was big in construction, so he should have some fking idea about buildings) - that was an added bonus - and it don't take too many brains to stand up out of your first class seat and slit the throat of an airhostess, an then fly the plane a bit until it hits a rather tall building.
What does take skill is to blow something up, and then get away. It takes a Bond to fly the plane into a building, then parachute out before impact and land in a field next to a helicopter and jetty away to Martha's Vineyard before getting a flight back to Saudi. That's when you need clever timers, and to stalk around under cover of darkness.
The thing that makes me feel a little bit better, and also know that the 7/7 bombers were who they said they were, is that no clever, clued up, maximum impact, media-savvy shahid would have blown up the tube. Such a person would have known that such an explosion in a tightly confined place would have limited casualties and not particularly disrupt the London transport/commuting network.
Instead, the clever shahid would have planted bombs on the overground network. One on the Dartford to Charing Cross line, one on the silver link, one on a line into Kings Cross and one into Paddington. And, if they could get over their obsession with doing things in fours, one from Tonbridge into Waterloo. If they had planted them at 9:30, they'd have had more casualities than 7/7, and stranded thousands of suburban commuters in London, including a hellovalot of bankers. The city would have been a nightmare zone for days. They would not have been able to remove the wreckage, and it would have been Hatfield times five.
But they didn't. And why? Because they were lads from Leeds and Dewsbury, didn't do their research (no one else had more of a clue than they did), and simply had no idea that London had an overground network that was so highly used. They thought London only had the underground, and believe me, my home town is 30 minutes away from Dewsbury and this is what most people's experience of London is.
Think of it this way: someone intends to fly a plane into Big Ben to 'make a statement'. Now, what would happen?
I dare say some very strange things. The plane would hit Big Ben and skate along the top of the roof of Westminster, but, instead of seeing visible impact on the top, what you might find is that the impact causes the entire frontispiece of the brickwork to slide and crumble away, like someone had pulled the face off Westminster. And tinhats would say that no plane had flown into Big Ben, it was explosive devices planted at the front of the building - by the government, that exploded.
When the reason would be that, when they built Westminster, they laid the blocks the wrong way - the brickwork is completely falling apart at the front.
And if a government is going to do something like this, surely it would be a lot smarter. Jeez, the US has retired Delta that can beat Pentagon full-combat simulation programmes with a couple of RPGs. If they really wanted an excuse to invade Afghanistan and Iraq, they'd plan a assault that a lot cleaner than 9/11.
(I'm probably going to regret posting this).
Dissident Junk said:
Probably you are
I think one of the defining characteristics of conspiranoids is that they are utterly incapable of placing themselves in others' shoes. Their whole purpose is to idenify The State as a single, unitary, evil, incomprehensible whole. This saves a lot of thinking and understanding, which is the payoff.
So the question "if you were a rogue element in the Department of Defense, what would you do?" simply doesn't make sense to them - still less "and how would you do it despite the best efforts of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, who you're bound to stumble across by accident, let alone the FBI..."
September 11 and July 7 are simply too postmodern to be planned by intelligent government/military people - too concerned with symbols. DoD/MoD would have gone for targets of eminent economic value, like o*l r*fin*ri*s; CIA/MI6 for ostensible political power like Senate/Whitehall; NSA/GCHQ for themselves
Loki said:
Just spotted that:
There is unfortunately a plausible plot that involves liquids.
It just has nothing to do with carrying out chemistry on board.
And there may even be a hint of someone with some understanding of chemistry behind the security controls, 'cos seeral of the liquids I've researched so far are notable for their vile stink. Of course that could equally be someone stupid being right by accident, which can even happen to conspiranoids.
So you are unable to discuss what I have posted?Jazzz said:
You are unable to think about my claims and tell me why I am wrong?
Why should anyone listen to anything you have to say unless you are willing to engage with what they have to say?
Both the airline 'scare' and the arrests make sense. You are refusing to even discuss this with me - you just want to throw more and more links at us, stuff that you already believe and don't really want to debate or discuss.
It is just a one way street with you, and you are not really here to discuss things, just offload rubbish at people and then stick your fingers in your ears.
I can't see us developing anything useful TeeJay, and I'm not particularly enamoured by your aggresive style and insults. Thing is, I'm just getting too weary of the vitriolic slanging-match thing - we know where it leads. It takes two to indulge in that, and I'm not doing it unless I have to. I will seek to make the points I feel are worth making - I am sure you will make yours too, and I hope you do so. There is plenty of room.
If you want to interpret that as you have above, that's your prerogative.
If you want to interpret that as you have above, that's your prerogative.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
So Jazz, any comments on DJs post?
Kameron
Kamoceratops
This is partly it but I have a bigger problem with these people and that is that they really think that the governement is capable of organising this and keeping it quite. This is a goverment that can't even get ID cards off the ground or the child support agency ... why in the name of all unholly fuck do people think that the CIA (which lets remember is less effiecnt at killing Castro than cancer) can blow up the twin towers.laptop said:
The whole conspirloon position depends on a most effective and power state capable of near total secracy and massive disinformation, this is a goverment that can't even convice us that the NHS is a half decent health service. I think a sense of proportion is required.
ska invita
back on the other side
Accodring to this article the whole raid on the 24 was false - the case against is paper thin - and the evidence has been misrepresented.
Read for the full details.
http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2006/683/683p19.htm
Are there any sources that disprove the above?
Has anyone been prosecuted? What is the current status of the case?
Read for the full details.
http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2006/683/683p19.htm
Are there any sources that disprove the above?
Has anyone been prosecuted? What is the current status of the case?
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
CNN carried the AP report and the Washington Examiner goes into a bit more detail.niksativa said:
The Greenleft thing is a tendentious bit of green ink writing.
If the AP report is correct, 25 people have been arrested, and 15 people are being prosecuted. Eight of these are charged with conspiracy to commit murder and preparing to commit terrorism and have appeared in court, were remanded and, presumably on legal advice from Ms Pierce and others, declined to apply for bail.
The court will decide in eighteen months or so whether the charges are paper thin.
editor
hiraethified
Glad to see your mind is once again firmly made about their complete innocence and the existence of a frame up, long before anyone's had chance to see the full facts or hear the prosecution's case.Jazzz said:
No need for a court case or for due process, eh Jazzz?! Let's just let them go now*!
(*edit to add: but if the case does prove to be one big cock up/bag o'bullshit, then let's hope the accused get full compensation, as is their right. But if they're proved guilty, lob the fucking book at 'em).
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
Sez the defence lawyer, trying to get her clients off, before the trial they will need to face to clear or convict them.Jazzz said:
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
Note that they could have applied for bail but didn't.editor said:Let's just let them go now*!
(*edit to add: but if the case does prove to be one big cock up/bag o'bullshit, then let's hope the accused get full compensation, as is their right. But if they're proved guilty, lob the fucking book at 'em).
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
How do you know there's a lack of airline tickets/passports/bombs? In what way is it an established fact? Do you have a time machine to take you forward to the trial some several months into the future?Jazzz said:
If so can I get a shot next?
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