What's your kind of revolution?

[frogwoman]

Expectation, froggy. Expectation.

If someone only has £30 to do the weekly shop then they can't expect to buy whatever they want whenever they want, can they.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

except now we own nothing. in that situation we'll own everything. refusing to work after a revolution is not the same as refusing to work now. if you shared a house with someone who refused to do their share of cooking and washing up, you'd soon stop feeding them and cleaning up after them.

The idea that you can extrapolate from how an individual household of people who all know each other is run to how a large society of people who don't know each other should be run.

The Thatcher fallacy.

 

[frogwoman]

Yes, I would say that most people do.

Then I would say that you are wrong.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

If someone only has £30 to do the weekly shop then they can't expect to buy whatever they want whenever they want, can they.

I didn't say they could. You've misunderstood my point.

 

[_angel_]

We need to get away from the idea that we can eat anything we like whenever we like .

Can someone please tell my middle son this, all he has done today is run back and forth to the kitchen.

 

[frogwoman]

I don't think I have. You are saying that there's an expectation that most people can expect to buy whatever food they like, whenever they like. And I would say that you are wrong. There are times when I've gone without buying food and gone hungry for most of the day so that I can have enough money to last me the week on travel to and from work. I wouldn't say that in those cases I expect to buy and eat whatever I like.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I don't think I have. You are saying that there's an expectation that most people can expect to buy whatever food they like, whenever they like. And I would say that you are wrong. There are times when I've gone without buying food so that I can have enough money to last me the week on travel to and from work. I wouldn't say that in those cases I expect to buy and eat whatever I like.

If they have the money, clearly. Same with driving.

 

[frogwoman]

If they have the money, clearly. Same with driving.

So you think that I could expect to be able to jump in a car and drive to Scotland and back right now for example? That's basically what you're saying. And I would argue that most people don't have the expectation to be able to do this because most people don't have the money or time to do it.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I think what littlebabyjesus is getting at is the useful (to the capitalist) myth of capitalism - that being that if you work hard enough and are good enough you can have whatever you want. And it is a powerful myth, people genuinely believe in it. I'm seeing it weaken somewhat but it's still very strong.

 

[frogwoman]

I think what littlebabyjesus is getting at is the useful (to the capitalist) myth of capitalism - that being that if you work hard enough and are good enough you can have whatever you want. And it is a powerful myth, people genuinely believe in it. I'm seeing it weaken somewhat but it's still very strong.

ah yeah, the american dream. it just came across like it was like "people shouldn't expect to be able to drive for long distances, eat fruit and vegetables out of season, etc". this probably wasn't his intention but ignore me i'm in a bit of a bad mood

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So you think that I could expect to be able to jump in a car and drive to Scotland and back right now for example? That's basically what you're saying.

I'm saying that people have an expectation that limits will not be put on what they can do with their money when it comes to things like eating and driving.

To give you an example of what I mean: There is a significant minority of people who, like me, don't like cars much, and who would rather like to be able to wander around a car-free town every now and then. But car drivers and their right to drive wherever they want whenever they want normally always take precedence. A truly civil society allows the minority its wish sometimes – once a week, or once a month, it should be their turn to say how things are done.

This is the kind of transformative society I would want – one in which the conflicting freedoms of different groups are fairly balanced against each other within a framework of compulsory sustainability.

 

[discokermit]

The idea that you can extrapolate from how an individual household of people who all know each other is run to how a large society of strangers can be run.

The Thatcher fallacy.

what?

when we've done all the work, we'll all have a break. til then we can't carry passengers. either do your bit or fuck off, i don't see how it can be any different.

if i'm at work and i see someone struggling to lift something i automatically go to help. in a society we control, if we're struggling to make enough trains and you're gonna stand watching us make them with your thumb stuck up your arse, then expect to go on a daytrip on the train after we've made it, you can fuck right off.

 

[frogwoman]

I think what littlebabyjesus is getting at is the useful (to the capitalist) myth of capitalism - that being that if you work hard enough and are good enough you can have whatever you want. And it is a powerful myth, people genuinely believe in it. I'm seeing it weaken somewhat but it's still very strong.

ah yeah, the american dream. it just came across like it was like "people shouldn't expect to be able to drive for long distances, eat fruit and vegetables out of season, etc". this probably wasn't his intention but ignore me i'm in a bit of a bad mood

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That's why the citizen's wage is set at a significantly lower level – if you choose not to work, you're given enough to cover your essentials and you're left alone. If you want more than that, you have to work.

 

[nino_savatte]

I think what littlebabyjesus is getting at is the useful (to the capitalist) myth of capitalism - that being that if you work hard enough and are good enough you can have whatever you want. And it is a powerful myth, people genuinely believe in it. I'm seeing it weaken somewhat but it's still very strong.

Yep, in the USA it would be referred to as the "American Dream".

 

[nino_savatte]

It's the Spectacle, baby.

 

[discokermit]

That's why the citizen's wage is set at a significantly lower level – if you choose not to work, you're given enough to cover your essentials and you're left alone. If you want more than that, you have to work.

fuck the citizens wage. make everything free then there's no use for it.

 

[nino_savatte]

Workers councils. There has to be workers councils.

 

[frogwoman]

I'm saying that people have an expectation that limits will not be put on what they can do with their money when it comes to things like eating and driving.

To give you an example of what I mean: There is a significant minority of people who, like me, don't like cars much, and who would rather like to be able to wander around a car-free town every now and then. But car drivers and their right to drive wherever they want whenever they want normally always take precedence. A truly civil society allows the minority its wish sometimes – once a week, or once a month, it should be their turn to say how things are done.

This is the kind of transformative society I would want – one in which the conflicting freedoms of different groups are fairly balanced against each other within a framework of compulsory sustainability.

i don't drive either. but part of the reason people do in such large numbers is because of the paucity of public transport. the way you're phrasing your posts is making it seem as though you think that it's all the fault of "car drivers" etc feeling they have a right to do what they want. this probably isn't what you're intending to get across tho, but i always find it a bit annoying when people start saying that everyone should give up things like cars, flying, etc when much of the time those things are luxuries anyway.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

fuck the citizens wage. make everything free then there's no use for it.

Except that if you make everything free, you then have to institute systems of coercion to make everyone work. No freedom to drop out, compulsory conformity. Bollocks to that.

 

[discokermit]

Workers councils. There has to be workers councils.

unless we figure out a better way when the time comes.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

i don't drive either. but part of the reason people do in such large numbers is because of the paucity of public transport.

That is only part of the reason. Part of the reason is also because people like being able to drive everywhere. I don't think we should kid ourselves about that.

 

[frogwoman]

That is only part of the reason. Part of the reason is also because people like being able to drive everywhere. I don't think we should kid ourselves about that.

Of course. Why shouldn't they, though? And given that the cost of driving a couple of hours can come to about £60+ i don't think the roads are filled with people driving around aimlessly from london to aberdeen and back.

 

[discokermit]

Except that if you make everything free, you then have to institute systems of coercion to make everyone work. No freedom to drop out, compulsory conformity. Bollocks to that.

coercion? why would you need to be coerced when you have a real stake in society and real control over what you produce and all your needs are met? you would have to be a complete anti social cunt to think you could sit round doing fuck all while everybody else runs round after you.

 

[frogwoman]

coercion? why would you need to be coerced when you have a real stake in society and real control over what you produce and all your needs are met? you would have to be a complete anti social cunt to think you could sit round doing fuck all while everybody else runs round after you.

yep.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Of course. Why shouldn't they, though? And given that the cost of driving a couple of hours can come to about £60+ i don't think the roads are filled with people driving around aimlessly from london to aberdeen and back.

Ah, but this is part of the problem with current methods to control the amount people drive - by price. This of course discriminates against the poor – what does the millionaire banker in his Porsche care about the Congestion Charge, for instance. I would say that, generally, rationing through price like this is a very undemocratic thing to do. Just because A is richer than B, that should not mean that A should be allowed to lead a less sustainable lifestyle than B!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

coercion? why would you need to be coerced when you have a real stake in society and real control over what you produce and all your needs are met? you would have to be a complete anti social cunt to think you could sit round doing fuck all while everybody else runs round after you.

I that case, there's no need to force people to work! If you think the vast majority will want to anyway, why make it compulsory?

Sorry, you can't design a society based on how you would design the rules in a shared house. Or at least, you shouldn't.

 

[frogwoman]

Ah, but this is part of the problem with current methods to control the amount people drive - by price. This of course discriminates against the poor – what does the millionaire banker in his Porsche care about the Congestion Charge, for instance. I would say that, generally, rationing through price like this is a very undemocratic thing to do. Just because A is richer than B, that should not mean that A should be allowed to lead a less sustainable lifestyle than B!

What about economic coercion to lead a less sustainable lifestyle? (as with food)?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

No society can ever exist without some kind of coercion – it's just an Onar-style fallacy to think that it can. However, in my opinion, coercion should be kept to a minimum, particularly the coercion of the poor and/or disadvantaged.

 

[discokermit]

I that case, there's no need to force people to work! If you think the vast majority will want to anyway, why make it compulsory?

vast majority.

the tiny minority of anti social elements may have to be forced. i doubt it would be much of a problem though as i think most people want to help each other as well as themselves.