What's your kind of revolution?

[_angel_]

They're free to become worker-owned enterprises or continue as part of the private sector. Nothing changes - we just switch to the most efficient models for running essential industry and providing for all basic needs at the lowest possible cost by combining purchasing power and eliminating the profit-makers. Think of it as one massive shopping collective.

Most the smaller ones round here don't have staff anyway. They're the ones I feel sorriest for, because the guys (it usually is the men that do most of it, wives seem to get time off for family stuff) they don't get to do anything else, ever.

 

[frogwoman]

Yep. And a lot of them are open from about 6am till past midnight.

 

[ymu]

Most the smaller ones round here don't have staff anyway. They're the ones I feel sorriest for, because the guys (it usually is the men that do most of it, wives seem to get time off for family stuff) they don't get to do anything else, ever.

It would be essentially no different for them. They are worker-owned non-profit enterprises, because the owners work long hours and don't earn massive amounts, usually, often only employing family who will have a de facto say in running the business.

As I say, for 90% of us, or even 99% of us, it would be business as usual. The only difference is that we'd be operating in a more efficient and stable economy, with virtually zero waste where everyone gets the support they need to achieve their potential, whilst spending considerably less on administration and bureaucracy than government and local government do now.

 

[frogwoman]

It would be essentially no different for them. They are worker-owned non-profit enterprises, because the owners work long hours and don't earn massive amounts, usually, often only employing family who will have a de facto say in running the business.

As I say, for 90% of us, or even 99% of us, it would be business as usual. The only difference is that we'd be operating in a more efficient and stable economy, with virtually zero waste where everyone gets the support they need to achieve their potential, whilst spending considerably less on administration and bureaucracy than government and local government do now.

not being funny but how would life be any better for them then? would they still have to live under these conditions (very long hours, very little money, etc) in your system?

 

[_angel_]

Yep. And a lot of them are open from about 6am till past midnight.

Woah! Not round here they're not. We have old fashioned dinner hours and siestas in some cases. There latest they stay open is 10pm around here, many close between 7-8 and I don't blame em. I don't think they open that early!

 

[ymu]

not being funny but how would life be any better for them then? would they still have to live under these conditions (very long hours, very little money, etc) in your system?

People would have more money to spend with them, because housing costs would be cheaper. Wages would be 10% higher for a 30 hour working week, and consumption from the poor would increase dramatically as a result. It's essentially the less talked about bit of Keynesianism - a healthy economy requires well paid workers.

Their takings should rise sufficiently that they can take on more workers and get more leisure time.

 

[_angel_]

not being funny but how would life be any better for them then? would they still have to live under these conditions (very long hours, very little money, etc) in your system?

I don't know about the little money, I'm sure they are raking it in - but at the cost of having virtually zero life.

eta: still on about corner shops, not employees of supermarkets

 

[frogwoman]

Yep, what im wondering is how would that change? how would they able to have more of a life then?

and when i was living in reading plenty of them would stay open till about 1 or 2 in the morning.

 

[ymu]

Yep, what im wondering is how would that change? how would they able to have more of a life then?

and when i was living in reading plenty of them would stay open till about 1 or 2 in the morning.

All workers have to decide the balance to draw between income and leisure. Small business owners are in a much easier position than most - it's a lot easier to choose to shed well-paid work for leisure than it is to choose to shed leisure for well-paid work.

It is their autonomy that makes them socially middle-class. Lots of high earners work long hours to achieve that. But it's their choice. Others work long hours for a pittance and can't afford enough fuel and food to live a comfortable life.

 

[_angel_]

All workers have to decide the balance to draw between income and leisure. Small business owners are in a much easier position than most - it's a lot easier to choose to shed well-paid work for leisure than it is to choose to shed leisure for well-paid work.

It is their autonomy that makes them socially middle-class. Lots of high earners work long hours to achieve that. But it's their choice. Others work long hours for a pittance and can't afford enough fuel and food to live a comfortable life.

Yeah but they're still in competition with each other and more importantly, the supermarkets. In a place like Bramley there's not so much pressure to open crazy hours, but in London it'd be different.

I wouldn't want to be a corner shop owner for all the tea in China, I've got to say.

 

[frogwoman]

All workers have to decide the balance to draw between income and leisure. Small business owners are in a much easier position than most - it's a lot easier to choose to shed well-paid work for leisure than it is to choose to shed leisure for well-paid work.

It is their autonomy that makes them socially middle-class. Lots of high earners work long hours to achieve that. But it's their choice. Others work long hours for a pittance and can't afford enough fuel and food to live a comfortable life.

oh, i agree with that.

 

[ymu]

Yeah but they're still in competition with each other and more importantly, the supermarkets. In a place like Bramley there's not so much pressure to open crazy hours, but in London it'd be different.

I wouldn't want to be a corner shop owner for all the tea in China, I've got to say.

Local shops would be positively encouraged, to allow people with no transport to access decent food.

All basic food 'needs' would be supplied by state-owned and worker-owned non-profit enterprises, with collective purchasing to agree fair prices for producers. Worker-owned non-profit enterprises would be allowed to tap into that purchasing network and get exactly the same prices as the supermarkets. Their overheads are lower, so they would be able to offer better value (as they do now). Supermarkets are about convenience for those with cars, not value.

 

[discokermit]

get rid of wages, get rid of money, everything is free.

 

[ymu]

get rid of wages, get rid of money, everything is free.

I'm a bit knackered walking home today, I think I'll just pop into the Porsche dealership and pick up a new car.

How can it work without rationing? How is money anything other than a convenient means of exchange? Limit the shenanigans that may be pulled with money and limit the inequality of access to money that is allowed in total - if the rich want to get richer, they will have to make the poor richer too, because the maximum wage is 4x the minimum wage (£60k vs £15k for starters in these proposals).

 

[_angel_]

Local shops would be positively encouraged, to allow people with no transport to access decent food.

All basic food 'needs' would be supplied by state-owned and worker-owned non-profit enterprises, with collective purchasing to agree fair prices for producers. Worker-owned non-profit enterprises would be allowed to tap into that purchasing network and get exactly the same prices as the supermarkets. Their overheads are lower, so they would be able to offer better value (as they do now). Supermarkets are about convenience for those with cars, not value.

Encouraging internet deliveries by supermarkets could reduce the need to drive there anyway. I wonder what % of people do shop online?

 

[discokermit]

I'm a bit knackered walking home today, I think I'll just pop into the Porsche dealership and pick up a new car.

How can it work without rationing? How is money anything other than a convenient means of exchange? Limit the shenanigans that may be pulled with money and limit the inequality of access to money that is allowed in total - if the rich want to get richer, they will have to make the poor richer too, because the maximum wage is 4x the minimum wage (£60k vs £15k for starters in these proposals).

we won't need porsche dealerships so we won't have them. unless we decide to make enough for everyone. if you're fed up of walking get on the free and plentiful public transport.

from each according to their ability, to each according to their need. if you need a house, you get one. if you don't, you won't. same for everything else.

 

[discokermit]

Encouraging internet deliveries by supermarkets could reduce the need to drive there anyway. I wonder what % of people do shop online?

free cafeterias and restaurants would also cut down on what's needed to be delivered anyway.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

we won't need porsche dealerships so we won't have them. unless we decide to make enough for everyone. if you're fed up of walking get on the free and plentiful public transport.

from each according to their ability, to each according to their need. if you need a house, you get one. if you don't, you won't. same for everything else.

Problem with that is dealing with the stuff that people don't need but just want. For instance, ctr I'm sure there will still be a few people who will want to play golf. So you provide some golf courses to match the demand, but if you want to play golf, you have to then forgo some other thing that you want – otherwise some people would hog more than their share of resources.

I don't drive and don't care at all about cars, but the world would be a duller place if we only ever considered utilitarian value. So if, instead of playing golf, someone wants to drive a fast car every now and then, they can have a part-share in a Porsche instead.

 

[ymu]

Encouraging internet deliveries by supermarkets could reduce the need to drive there anyway. I wonder what % of people do shop online?

I think it's a great thing, and necessary to reduce fuel use and the need to run a car.

 

[ymu]

Problem with that is dealing with the stuff that people don't need but just want. For instance, ctr I'm sure there will still be a few people who will want to play golf. So you provide some golf courses to match the demand, but if you want to play golf, you have to then forgo some other thing that you want –*otherwise some people would hog more than their share of resources.

Exactly. 'Needs' to a high standard of living made available at cost price, 'wants to be catered for by entrepreneurial groups of workers or capital-holders, and a maximum wage set at 4x the minimum wage, with full employment and a citizen's income in the form of a massive tax rebate/pension payment to make sure that everyone can participate.

 

[discokermit]

and a maximum wage set at 4x the minimum wage,

if some cunt is earning four times as much as me after the revolution then the revolution can fuck off.

 

[discokermit]

Problem with that is dealing with the stuff that people don't need but just want. For instance, ctr I'm sure there will still be a few people who will want to play golf. So you provide some golf courses to match the demand, but if you want to play golf, you have to then forgo some other thing that you want – otherwise some people would hog more than their share of resources.

I don't drive and don't care at all about cars, but the world would be a duller place if we only ever considered utilitarian value. So if, instead of playing golf, someone wants to drive a fast car every now and then, they can have a part-share in a Porsche instead.

or maybe some access to race tracks and decent motors, which the majority don't have now. we'll work something out. for free.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

if some cunt is earning four times as much as me after the revolution then the revolution can fuck off.

That 4x idea dates right back to Plato. It's arbitrary, but it feels kind of right to me.

 

[ymu]

if some cunt is earning four times as much as me after the revolution then the revolution can fuck off.

You're a skilled worker and you don't want to be paid more than some cunt sitting behind a desk in a cushy air-conditioned office?

 

[_angel_]

Don't Sweden (I think) have a rule that the top earner in a company can't earn more than ten times of the lowest paid employee, same principle, just different numbers.
Somewhere between 4 and 10 might be right, don't know where tho. There ought to be a ratio of some sort in play.

 

[ymu]

or maybe some access to race tracks and decent motors, which the majority don't have now. we'll work something out. for free.

Yeah. We'll be giving tax breaks to companies that buy up great cars with their profits, on condition that they get handed over to worker-owned enterprises within three years.

That 4x idea dates right back to Plato. It's arbitrary, but it feels kind of right to me.

It's also what Lenin reckoned was about right.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's also what Lenin reckoned was about right.

After reading Plato, no doubt.

I bet Plato heard it from some bloke, too.

 

[ymu]

After reading Plato, no doubt.

I bet Plato heard it from some bloke, too.

Apart from anything, someone with a family needs to earn more than a kid who still lives at home. With lifelong training available, and worker-owned enterprises squeezing out private enterprise through sheer efficiency, we'll be seeing a much stronger correlation between wages and age, with more experienced workers earning more - and investing it in bringing up a family - and then by the time the kids have left home they're earning enough to start sorting out their plans for a comfortable retirement or they can afford to change career direction and take a few risks.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think you have to allow space for people who want to be lazy too, tbh. I dislike coercion and would like to see as little of it as possible.

If you don't want to work hard, or if you have some mad idea that you want to work on but that nobody else sees any value in, there needs to be space for you to exist – essentials provided but little else: what Bertrand Russel called a 'vagabond's wage'.

It's also very important to give people the option of not working as that forces employers to make working for them an attractive proposition. It turns the current situation on its head: "So, Mr Company Director, what is it about your company that you think makes it right for me?"

 

[ymu]

Absolutely. The citizen's wage would allow people that luxury, and ensure they could always bring up a family in reasonable comfort and security.

Work sucks sometimes, we all need to take a break sometimes, or just do something less stressful.

I'd love to run a 24 hour party bar for a while. But I think I'd probably keep medical research on as a hobby.