what's david shayler done for the stop the war coalition?

[Louis MacNeice]

He says before linking to his own articles 30times.

Never has so much shite been talked on one thread. Respect is also standing aside for Reg Keys from Mfaw in another key seat (Geoff Hoon???). And I think they're right in both cases not to split the vote.

Not to split the vote?...or to avoid humiliating defeat on what should be their campagning 'home turf' as it were (i.e. opposition to the war)?

Just asking - Louis Mac

 

[rednblack]

Not to split the vote?...or to avoid humiliating defeat on what should be their campagning 'home turf' as it were (i.e. opposition to the war)?

Just asking - Louis Mac

or because Mfaw are another swp front? so in other words they are standing aside for themselves

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Levity from Levien?

It is certainly a legitimate question (asked by Butcher's Apron) as to whether Respect standing aside in Sedgefield to allow Shayler a free run has something to do with a fear of electoral humiliation after Hartlepool. Even if it is that, in part, it is still a legitimate question (which we put to Respect before publishing our article on Shayler/Machon) as to whether Respect should stand aside for the likes of Shayler in particular.

As for Levien's reference to the reasoned discussion (which thankfully this thread has largely been, so far) being "shite", there is little to say save to ask this paragon of sparkling debate and incisive commentary is it really "shite" to take exception to Shayler/Machon spreading lies disinformation & insults about the Left. Or don't you care? I suspect, given the snide level of abuse that your contribution exhibits, that will (alas) have to stand as a rhetorical question. To respond to an (inaccurate) claim about 30 links to past articles, I have indeed referred to past NFB articles on Shayler to illustrate both that our concerns are long-standing, and that there is ample evidence to back them up. It will no doubt overjoy Levien to learn that as part of the imminent web-site upgrade we (www.borderland.co.uk) intend to publish summaries of some long-standing stories--Shayler/Machon will definitely be one. I am not sure how exactly Levien sees himself fitting into the struggle for revolutionary socialism, but we at NFB see ourselves as very clearly staking out ground in a perparatory ideological war of position prior to a resumed war of maneouvre. Or was Gramsci "shite" too?

What I would like to see on this thread, from somebody capable of it, is a reasoned & detailed defence of Shayler/Machon. In the immortal words of Delia Smith "Let's be having you!".

 

[ernestolynch]

What on earth is 'MFAW'?

 

[montevideo]

military families against war.

An incomplete notebook!? 200 lines, detention & see me.

 

[X-77]

bloody hell...Shayler's popping up all over the place it seems. Here he can be seen plugging the book "A World to Win: a Rough Guide to a Future without Global Capitalism"

http://www.aworldtowin.net/index.html

 

[Pickman's model]

What on earth is 'MFAW'?

it sounds like part of a Cthulhu chant, similar to this:

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.

which translates (freely) as "in his house at r'lyeh great Cthulhu lies dreaming"

 

[Paul Marsh]

Am I the only person unable to stop myself laughing at the entry from David Shayler in STWCs new book "Stop the War - The Story of Britain's biggest mass movement"?

On p.15 Shayler beings his article "As a former counter-terrorism officer..."
He does not tell STWC readers that his job also involved counter-subversion, there being a reasonable chance of course that a few of the people in, and around STWC being........... the very people he used to spy on.

More comic however is the fact that just a few pages earlier Tony Benn writes the foreward. Yes, the same Tony Benn who Shayler's partner, Annie Machon, recently accused in the Mail on Sunday of passing defence secrets to the KGB, whilst a Labour Minister, using a trades union leader as the conduit.

A smear worthy of the best red scares of the Thatcher/Reagen years, but delivered towards an icon of the British left, by a woman who works as an advisor to Liberty and whose partner swims, unquestioned in STWC/SWP circles.

Comment ....... levien?
Comment ......... cliffite?
Comment anyone for STWC, SWP, Workers Power or Respect?

 

[DaveCinzano]

there's some interesting stuff on this thread - especially in light of how the o'hara/shayler debate has now happened.

paul - can you give a bit more detail on the shayler/gosling story?

 

[Larry O'Hara]

there's some interesting stuff on this thread - especially in light of how the o'hara/shayler debate has now happened.

paul - can you give a bit more detail on the shayler/gosling story?

1) As regards what Shayler said to Gosling, we hope to be able to bring further news of that in near future.

2) Re the Gosling claim about the state propping up CW
--that does appear, more or less, in the Machon book, though as a rhetorical question.
--in debate, Shayler certainly didn't/couldn't substantiate claims about the state & CW.
--his precise line (this week) is the Met SB infiltrator does/did exist, but he (Shayler) has no knowledge the man was ever actually even in CW!!

 

[Mrs Magpie]

My original take on David Shayler when he first came to the public's attention was that he was slightly hatstand...I've changed my mind. he's not slightly hatstand, he's an entire fucking cloakroom......

 

[DaveCinzano]

larry - i was thinking more in terms of how/where shayler and gosling cooked up that story/met etc.

 

[Paul Marsh]

Shayler and Gosling met in Bristol, I think when Shayler came to speak there a few years ago. If I recall correctly it was 2001.

Shayler appears to have given information to Gosling that Class War was propped up by the security services.

Gosling had the option to riase this with Class War, but instead started posting threads on Indymedia. One of these was headed "The Class War/MI5 files by Class War".

This clearly stated that the article was written by Class War, when the text was instead written by Gosling (something he later admitted) Gosling is not and never has been a member of Class War, nor is he any friend of ours. For this impersonation alone, Gosling should have been booted from Indymedia for good.

When Larry O'hara phoned Gosling up to discuss this issue, Gosling had little to say for himself other than repeating what Shayler had allegedly told him. He got very nervous and then tied himself in knots. Like Shayler, Gosling does not stand up to rigorous analysis.

Things have quietened down since then, although to this day virtually as soon as Class War post anything on Indymedia someone pipes up that Class War in some way equals MI5.

Clearly Tony is rather underemployed these days................

 

[DaveCinzano]

i notice that his email signature leads with www.nujbristol.org.uk - but there's no site up? yet it was only registered in march?

 

[DaveCinzano]

Things have quietened down since then, although to this day virtually as soon as Class War post anything on Indymedia someone pipes up that Class War in some way equals MI5.

pah! cw are sartorially superior!

seriously though, are there any possible reasons for gosling's antipathy, predating the shayler allegations, that you could publicly discuss? i mean, just what is his problem?

(answers on a postcard - a gurt fucking big postcard... )

 

[Paul Marsh]

Tony Gosling seems to have a bit of a general downer on Anarchists, even to the extent of previous attempts he has made to defend Bristol City Council from attacks by the Bristolian.

However, he had never appeared on CW's radar before this issue emerged, although he has written that he was a subscriber to Class War in the past.

Other than that, your guess is as good as mine.....

 

[DaveCinzano]

fair do's...

i note though that in 1997 he was preparing to work with anarchist-leaning activists on a radio project (in the end he talked himself up loads but delivered nothing, and he was never actually involved).

 

[october_lost]

Pete Docherty's been around the left for at least a couple of years.

The guy is a smack head

 

[Larry O'Hara]

As a point of interest...

I just thought you SWP types who have given Shayler such generous space (in Socialist Review/STWC book) & platform speaking opportunities would like to know that his response at the Anarchist BookFair to a question about the STWC was to claim that its recent relative downturn (march-wise numbers) was due to it being penetrated by infiltrators at the highest level (a paraphrase as I haven't transcribed our tape yet). In response, I made the point this sort of claim is exactly why we need full disclosure about alleged state assets inside the SWP.

The questions are

1) who are they?

2) Have the SWP ever asked him about this, if not, why not.

3) How happy are the SWP/Respect supporters on here to have this ex (?) MI5 officer dismissing one of their campaigns as being derailed by state assets.

 

[newbie]

why would the state be interested in derailing chip wrapping like STWC?

 

[Pickman's model]

why would the state be interested in derailing chip wrapping like STWC?

yeh! when the swc is clearly fucking itself up without any outside assistance! (and probably because of the presence of a certain organisation in its ranks.)

 

[Larry O'Hara]

why would the state be interested in derailing chip wrapping like STWC?

Given at one point it had circa a million? demonstrators on the streets, motive enough. Now, it isn't that I'm definitively approving his claim, rather that it raises questions I'd like answers too from those naive SWP-types who gave this spook house-room & legitimacy.

 

[Pickman's model]

Given at one point it had circa a million? demonstrators on the streets, motive enough. Now, it isn't that I'm definitively approving his claim, rather that it raises questions I'd like answers too from those naive SWP-types who gave this spook house-room & legitimacy.

and they were happy with his presence at the funeral of st paul foot, pbuh.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

yeh! when the swc is clearly fucking itself up without any outside assistance! (and probably because of the presence of a certain organisation in its ranks.)

see my reply to newbie.

 

[Pickman's model]

see my reply to newbie.

larry,

for quite some time i've thought that the swc was precisely the sort of organisation a government would be happy enough with, diverting people's anti-war energies into entirely ineffective campaigning - precisely the sort of campaigning *a certain organisation* specialises in. i wouldn't be in the slightest surprised if it turned out that the swp shared certain things with the bolsheviks - like a high proportion of their cc being active okhrana (or mi5) assets. tho' there is absolutely NO chance that the swp could ever emulate their famous heroes (atheism be praised!).

 

[newbie]

Given at one point it had circa a million? demonstrators on the streets, motive enough. Now, it isn't that I'm definitively approving his claim, rather that it raises questions I'd like answers too from those naive SWP-types who gave this spook house-room & legitimacy.

I wouldn't have questioned an assertion that it was high on the state agenda 2 or 3 years ago. But you said "his response at the Anarchist BookFair to a question about the STWC was to claim that its recent relative downturn (march-wise numbers) was due to it being penetrated by infiltrators at the highest level". Perhaps I was reading too much into your precise words, but to me that implies that STWC has been neutered by recent penetration, rasing thew question about why the state would be interested in it now.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

I wouldn't have questioned an assertion that it was high on the state agenda 2 or 3 years ago. But you said "his response at the Anarchist BookFair to a question about the STWC was to claim that its recent relative downturn (march-wise numbers) was due to it being penetrated by infiltrators at the highest level". Perhaps I was reading too much into your precise words, but to me that implies that STWC has been neutered by recent penetration, rasing thew question about why the state would be interested in it now.

I don't think he was implying recent as such--when I've transacribed the tape, will return to this. In any event, STWC has been controlled by SWP from the start--and none of their members have responded yet. What a surprise (not).