STOP THE WAR COALITION MEETING OXFORD. 19/04/2022

[Shechemite]

Oxford is a weird place. Oxford BLM posting that hook nosed Jewish bankers mural fits the bill.

Anyway, will Paula be there?

 

[Dystopiary]

I can see how Galloway remains with this person as an officer:

 

[Gramsci]

Interesting read, thanks for sharing, it doesn't surprise me TBH.

However, you are wrong to claim these events were 'pre-the Putin invasion', pre-the latest invasion yes, but after the 2014 invasion, and a result of the fall out following that, not that that provides an excuse for torture on the Ukrainian side.

My original point stands, there wasn't any real problem in Donbas until Putin created one.

What I think is mistaken is for some posters to keep going on about the Azov battalion. From 2014 the way the Ukrainian state fought the war was partly using militias. Azov wasn't the only one. And this way of fighting the war in human rights terms was poor. This pre dated Zelenksky.

This report by Amnesty International on another militia- Aidar- concludes that whilst fighting the Russian separatists and regaining territory for Ukraine it also took to detaining people, beating them up and stealing from them. Complaints to police and authorities by the victims left a lot to be desired. The militia acted with a fair amount of impunity as long as it fought against separatists.

Ukraine: Abuses and war crimes by the Aidar Volunteer Battalion in the north Luhansk region - Amnesty International

In this briefing Amnesty International is calling on the Ukrainian authorities to bring Aidar and other volunteer battalions under effective lines of command and control, promptly investigate all allegations of abuses, and hold those responsible to account. View Report in EnglishDownload PDF

www.amnesty.org

 

[Southlondon]

What I think is mistaken is for some posters to keep going on about the Azov battalion. From 2014 the way the Ukrainian state fought the war was partly using militias. Azov wasn't the only one. And this way of fighting the war in human rights terms was poor. This pre dated Zelenksky.

This report by Amnesty International on another militia- Aidar- concludes that whilst fighting the Russian separatists and regaining territory for Ukraine it also took to detaining people, beating them up and stealing from them. Complaints to police and authorities by the victims left a lot to be desired. The militia acted with a fair amount of impunity as long as it fought against separatists.

Ukraine: Abuses and war crimes by the Aidar Volunteer Battalion in the north Luhansk region - Amnesty International

In this briefing Amnesty International is calling on the Ukrainian authorities to bring Aidar and other volunteer battalions under effective lines of command and control, promptly investigate all allegations of abuses, and hold those responsible to account. View Report in EnglishDownload PDF

www.amnesty.org

You almost seem to be constantly defending the Azov batallion and in denial that they are a white supremacist bunch who are responsible for the most appalling violence against people in the donbass region where they are based. The fact that russ it and also use dodgy militias does not takeaway from the fact that these armed fascists are undeniably vile bastards and will continue pose a danger to minorities after the war should they survive which I sincerely hope they don’t.
They didn’t just take to ‘detaining people’ they tortured and murdered many of them as well.
Fascist don’t stop being fascist just because they are fighting a common cause with other fellow citizens and no one should make excuses for them.

 

[frogwoman]

Most Azov members have probably died in the last few weeks tbh

 

[ouirdeaux]

I have always opposed war in Ukraine, and have never even fantasised about starting even a minor argument in the region. As far as I'm aware, most people in Oxford have never been involved in that sort of thing either, although of course I have no access to their secret thoughts. I really think the one you should be targeting is Putin, because he has been rather keen for several months on the idea, as we can see from his actions.

 

[Southlondon]

Most Azov members have probably died in the last few weeks tbh

Some good news in the midst of all the horrors of the war

 

[rekil]

Most Azov members have probably died in the last few weeks tbh

Doesn't matter. Somewhat conveniently, loon analysis boils down to "all ukrainians = azov, therefore carnage, murder, rape, fridge pinching = good/doesn't happen/azov-are-doing-it-to-get-nato-in".

 

[The39thStep]

Most Azov members have probably died in the last few weeks tbh

The Azov regiment will no doubt have suffered losses in Mariupol but it's National Militia and 'family' ,according to a recent interview that Sergei Korotkikh (Boatswain) and ex commander in the Azov battalion did, did are elsewhere "For example, Andrei Biletsky has 2,300 people in Kyiv alone. The backbones of the defense of Sumy and Chernihiv are Azov. In Kharkov and the Dnieper , two battalions led by Azov. Mariupol is the clearest example"

 

[hitmouse]

And how many examples are there, from Ireland to Palestine to Kurdistan and beyond, of the deaths of martyrs being something that successfully drives the next wave of recruitment for a cause? I would hope that the deaths of Azov members would be an exception, but I wouldn't like to bet on it.

 

[nogojones]

How do the "yeah, but ...Azov" people feel about the Palestinian struggle?

Whilst it's not quite a direct comparison, do they spend most of their days complaining about how awful Hamas is and forget to mention the Israeli state?

 

[Nigel]

so Nigel, what's this I$rael thing then?

Symbolises that I don't accept the legitimacy of Apartheid puppet statelet 1$rael & see it as a backed and financed by America and other western imperialists & neo colonialists for their own exploitative interests!

Israel - Counterfire

Counterfire is a socialist organisation committed to building the biggest possible movements against a system that is creating more and more crisis and misery. Whether or not we get real change depends on wider struggles in society, it depends on mass movements, popular protests and on...

www.counterfire.org

Is Israel Legitimate?

Under normal circumstances, you would never hear such a question asked about any other country’s legitimacy. However, due to Israel’s paranoia and its weighty clout in Washington, a new…

dancingwithpalestinians.wordpress.com

 

[IC3D]

Article about Igor Kolomoisky Oligarch/mafia don and his militia from 2015. These militias formed the backbone of the ukr armed forces and numbered in the 1000's.

We just got a glimpse of how oligarch-funded militias could bring chaos to Ukraine

Vox is a general interest news site for the 21st century. Its mission: to help everyone understand our complicated world, so that we can all help shape it. In text, video and audio, our reporters explain politics, policy, world affairs, technology, culture, science, the climate crisis, money...

www.vox.com

 

[Nigel]

Oxford is a weird place. Oxford BLM posting that hook nosed Jewish bankers mural fits the bill.

Anyway, will Paula be there?

That wasn't necessarily Oxford BLM!
More others with weird conspiraloon reactionary ideas who became involved with TTIP!
There was also a lot of anti vaxx bollox that came to the forefront, thankfully more progressive elements in and around Oxford BLM did there best to counter this, however quite 'respected' figureheads involved considered 'professionals' as community activists still legitimise and push these ideas clandestinely!

Tbh, there were/are also pro/proto Zionist councillors and individuals in local Green Party who have made and played along with false allegations against Labour Left and other socialists/eco activists for their own opportunistic ends!

 

[frogwoman]

ДНР объявила о штурме «Азовстали» — последнего очага обороны Мариуполя Украинские власти говорят, что там укрывается тысяча мирных жителей — и на них сбрасывают сверхтяжелые бомбы — Meduza

18 апреля президент Украины Владимир Зеленский объявил, что Россия начала «битву за Донбасс», для которой сконцентрировала «очень значительную часть всей российской армии». Тем временем на юге-западе Донецкой области продолжаются бои за Мариуполь («сердце войны», по выражению украинского...

meduza.io

I don’t see anything good about this I'm afraid.

 

[hitmouse]

Summary for non-Russian readers?

 

[frogwoman]

 

[nogojones]

Symbolises that I don't accept the legitimacy of Apartheid puppet statelet 1$rael & see it as a backed and financed by America and other western imperialists & neo colonialists for their own exploitative interests!

Israel - Counterfire

Counterfire is a socialist organisation committed to building the biggest possible movements against a system that is creating more and more crisis and misery. Whether or not we get real change depends on wider struggles in society, it depends on mass movements, popular protests and on...

www.counterfire.org

Is Israel Legitimate?

Under normal circumstances, you would never hear such a question asked about any other country’s legitimacy. However, due to Israel’s paranoia and its weighty clout in Washington, a new…

dancingwithpalestinians.wordpress.com

That's all well and good, but can you see how it might be interpreted as pandering to antisemitic tropes?

 

[frogwoman]

Summary for non-Russian readers?

Do you have chrome, should be able to get a translation in your browser?

 

[frogwoman]

View attachment 319297

hitmouse

 

[hitmouse]

Don't use chrome but just put it through a translator - this is what I got:

The DPR announced the storming of Azovstal - the last center of defense of Mariupol Ukrainian authorities say that a thousand civilians are hiding there - and super-heavy bombs are dropped on them​

15:12, April 19, 2022
Source: Meduza



The territory of the plant "Azovstal". Frame published April 19, 2022
Mariupol City Council / Reuters / Scanpix / LETA
On April 18, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky announced that Russia had launched a “battle for the Donbass,” for which it had concentrated “a very significant part of the entire Russian army.” Meanwhile, in the south-west of the Donetsk region, fighting continues for Mariupol (“the heart of the war”, in the words of the Ukrainian president), where soldiers of the Azov regiment and marines from the 36th brigade are holding the line at the Azovstal plant. The Russian military is demanding they lay down their arms, and pro-Russian forces from the self-proclaimed DNR say they have launched an assault on the facility. According to the Ukrainian authorities, civilians, including children, are also hiding at the plant.

On April 19, the Russian Defense Ministry, for the second time in three days, offered to lay down their arms to the Ukrainian military, who are holding the defense at the Azovstal plant in Mariupol (they are called “militants of nationalist battalions and foreign mercenaries” in the statement). The proposal was made "taking into account the catastrophic situation that has developed at the Azovstal metallurgical plant, and also guided by purely humane principles." For those wishing to surrender , three corridors are said to be open.

The previous such statement was made on 16 April. At the time, the RF Ministry of Defense claimed that in the radio intercepts, the defenders of Azovstal allegedly asked Kyiv for permission to hand over their weapons, to which they were refused, threatening to be shot. How many Ukrainian soldiers are at Azovstal is unknown. The Ukrainian side does not disclose this data; The separatists who are trying to capture Mariupol claim that there are no more than 2,500 of them.
On the eve of the Ukrainian authorities demanded that Russia open a humanitarian corridor from Mariupol to Berdyansk forcivilians hiding on the territory of Azovstal, including women and children- According to the authorities of Mariupol, there are at least a thousand of them. Later, Azov Commander Denis Prokopenko made a similar demand addressed to "politicians of the entire civilized world". Azov also published a video of women and children talking about their stay at the plant and asking for a green corridor.

Azov video with women and children at the Azovstal plant
Despite this, on April 19, the head of the DPR, Denis Pushilin , stated thatinformation about a large number of civilians at the plant "was not confirmed"and that the requests for the creation of corridors are allegedly made to save foreign mercenaries. Later, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation repeated the same version , stating that "if any of the civilian population is at Azovstal, we demand that all measures be taken to release them and exit through the created gum corridors."
The representative of the people's militia (that is, the military) of the DPR, Eduard Basurin , called the statements about children and women at Azovstal "an excuse to stop shelling the territory and no one stormed this object." The assault on the plant, according to Basurin, is already underway - with the support of Russian aviation and artillery (on April 18, the WarGonzo project published a report from "newly recaptured positions of neo-Nazi militants" in the industrial zone of the plant).
According to the Mariupol City Council, Russian aviation strikes Azovstal with super-heavy bombs. The Azov commander, Prokopenko, also said that "bombs that destroy bunkers" are used in the bombardments. The SBU published an audio intercept, in which the alleged “Rostov platoon commander of the invaders” talks about the plans of aviation to use three-ton bombs and “raze everything to the ground.”

 

[Nigel]

That's all well and good, but can you see how it might be interpreted as pandering to antisemitic tropes?

Yeah
Ironically had this debate on Urban around a decade ago, mainly, if I can remember with Butcher's & Violent Panda; Zionism being only a minority position; history of Bund, Yiddisher movement etc. having mass following support among Jewish peoples! Also other groups such as many Orthodox Jews who don't accept it's legitimacy
Since then my position has become more accommodating, seeing two state solution, if only in the short term as the only recognisable way to build peace and stability in the region. Also to work with I$raeli trade unionists/labour movement and elements of peace movement to build unifying links and fraternity between Jewish people(s), Palestinians etc. and stability in middle east!

I think you are right and take your point.
I wouldn't necessarily use 1$rael among certain ordinances, however among politicos (or at least claiming to be) on here, think it's valid!

 

[nogojones]

Yeah
Ironically had this debate on Urban around a decade ago, mainly, if I can remember with Butcher's & Violent Panda; Zionism being only a minority position; history of Bund, Yiddisher movement etc. having mass following support among Jewish peoples! Also other groups such as many Orthodox Jews who don't accept it's legitimacy
Since then my position has become more accommodating, seeing two state solution, if only in the short term as the only recognisable way to build peace and stability in the region. Also to work with I$raeli trade unionists/labour movement and elements of peace movement to build unifying links and fraternity between Jewish people(s), Palestinians etc. and stability in middle east!

What does that word salad have to do with the question?

I think you are right and take your point.

Ok, so why did you then go ahead and use it twice more in that post? Or does it now default to that in your spellcheck?

It's not a good look Nigel.

 

[rekil]

You are a very stupid liability nigel.

 

[Nigel]

What does that word salad have to do with the question?


Ok, so why did you then go ahead and use it twice more in that post? Or does it now default to that in your spellcheck?

It's not a good look Nigel.

That may be your perspective!
I'm sticking by mine!
APARTHEID 1$RAEL IS NOT A LEGITIMATE STATE!

 

[nogojones]

That may be your perspective!
I'm sticking by mine!

So you're at ease with the fact that growing numbers of people take you for an antisemitic fool.

I've tried not to go in hard on this thread, because even though I have significant political differences with a lot of the StWC crew, I'd like to think that generally we're on the same side. I'm growing more concerned that I'm just deluded about that though the more I engage with them.

 

[ska invita]

The fact that russia also use dodgy militias does not takeaway from the fact that these armed fascists are undeniably vile bastards and will continue pose a danger to minorities after the war should they survive which I sincerely hope they don’t.

i think you misunderstood Gramsci's post - the Aidar Volunteer Battalion that the Amnesty war crimes report is about are also Ukrainian, not Russian. I think Gramsci is saying "Why go on about Azov, they're barely as bad as the other Ukrainian battalions." Thats my understanding of his post.

 

[ska invita]

How do the "yeah, but ...Azov" people feel about the Palestinian struggle?
Whilst it's not quite a direct comparison, do they spend most of their days complaining about how awful Hamas is and forget to mention the Israeli state?

For me its not a Yeah But, its about being aware of fascist currents wherever they may be - all the more dangerous if they can act within the jurisdiction of the state and play an active role in the global fascist creep.

Thats why fascist elements deserve special mention...soldiers committing war crimes, like Aidar Volunteers no doubt have done, should be no surprise to anyone - war is a crime and creates criminals of soldiers, fast. Fascist ideologues have potential impact and influence way beyond the battlefield.

Personally I'm more scared of Marine Le Pen than Azov, but then I live in a country 20 odd miles away from France.

 

[cupid_stunt]

i think you misunderstood Gramsci's post - the Aidar Volunteer Battalion that the Amnesty war crimes report is about are also Ukrainian, not Russian. I think Gramsci is saying "Why go on about Azov, they're barely as bad as the other Ukrainian battalions." Thats my understanding of his post.

The Aidar Battalion was disbanded, IIRC, back in 2015, so hardly surprising that they don't feature much in discussions now, whereas Azov is still around, although in a somewhat different form.

 

[Supine]

Somebody needs to arrest Nigel for crimes against the explanation mark!