not a trot
Well-Known Member
Appears the Mueller report has come up with nothing conclusive. Please don't say the orange turd could be heading for a second term.
What stupid shit has Trump done today?
- Thread starter Yossarian
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Farmer Giles
Well-Known Member
Combustible
Well-Known Member
Maybe Democrats will have to try some sort of politics, rather than relying on 'moderate' Republican surrogate father figures to make the bad man go away.
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
Watching the CNN panel -Democratic apologists by and large - endlessly spinning their wheels looking for traction, for something to salvage is instructive. The more Democratic pursue the 'collusion agenda' spin-offs ('obstruction' etc) the deeper they will sink. Their problem is once you take away the idea the 2016 election 'was stolen' what is it they have left? Rather than honestly examine why they failed so disastrously 3 years ago they have relied on Mueller rescuing them from their own political ineptitude. No matter what allegations might surface in the future, credibility wise, (especially when coupled with the disastrous misjudgments around the Kavanaugh appointment) the Democrats are toast.
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petee
no gods, no malarkey
the Democratic candidate won. but posturing as the anti-liberal is more fashionable. biden can beat trump easily btw, more easily than clinton did.
"so disastrously"
ps where is paul manafort tonight? but you just come with the rightwing line that this was only about trump. we who live here every day know differently.
krtek a houby
Anger is Hi-NRG
What have they left?
In particular, US and state attorneys in New York are peeling away the layers of the stinking onion that is the Trump family business. Those layers include hush money to a porn star, fraudulent statements to lenders and insurers about real estate, a sham family foundation and corruption involving foreign donations to an inaugural committee.
No collusion, plenty of corruption: Trump is not in the clear | Richard Wolffe
CRI
Registered Chooser
Nope. The Mueller report hasn't been circulated as yet. All that has been made public is a 4 page commentary on the report from the Attorney General. Even in that spartan (and no doubt selective) commentary, he states that the report does not exonerate the president. It also uses careful wording to say there are no connections to the Russian Government, but all other evidence points to connections with private Russian citizens - a convenient work around.
Congress can still subpoena Mueller to testify under oath on the content of the report and his investigation. Also, if the report reaches them conditionally, there is nothing to stop one of their numbers reading from it on the floor of the house or senate.
Apart from a few media pundits and popular social media folk, I don't think anyone was expecting Mueller to have a magic wand and no one put all their eggs in Mueller's basket. Journalists like Sarah Kendzior warned from the outset not to put much faith in the investigation, given both that Mueller was a Republican who presided over some pretty ghastly intelligence lapses when in charge of the FBI (so potentially bent himself) and the fact the process moved at a snails pace, picking only the lowest hanging fruit. Was the whole investigation a set up designed to draw attention away from Trump/GOP corruption, to lull the American people into a sense of complacency, because at least "something" was being done? All the speculation about whether Trump would get Mueller fired, etc.? Was the Attorney General's rush to declare the findings a nothingburger intended to both boost up Trump's supporters faith in him and demoralise his opponents even more with a supreme, "Gotcha"?
Either way, I do think some folks pinned a lot of hopes on the investigation, and also didn't understand that it's scope was quite limited in any case. They hoped for lots of spin offs. But, it's not as though the Trump administration and GOP haven't broken plenty of other laws, quite openly. It's all in plain sight, but one of the big problems is that there are lots of Americans who know this, but just don't care.
Laws mean nothing if there isn't the will to enforce them. There are other investigations going on that could nail Trump on something that's less exciting than collusion with a foreign government. Bitter taste in the mouth if he evades punishment for what most see as the worst of his crimes, but I think most of those who aren't his acolytes would like to see him punished at least for something.
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Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
the Democratic candidate won. but posturing as the anti-liberal is more fashionable. biden can beat trump easily btw, more easily than clinton did.
"so disastrously"
ps where is paul manafort tonight? but you just come with the rightwing line that this was only about trump. we who live here every day know differently.
You lost to a cartoon.
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
Down the rabbit-hole.
krtek a houby
Anger is Hi-NRG
All avenues and options should be pursued. Now, I know the Trumpists over here are celebrating like it's the fourth of July and all that but this is far from over. But I agree that the Democrats need to organise and move away from the dreadful centrist stance that marks them out as more of the same. Severing all links with the Clintons would be a start.
Not to mention the sickening championing that O' Rourke rich dolt.
Yossarian
⏭️
I was definitely hoping for a little more from the Mueller investigation, since I'm not at all sure the Democrats are going to be competent enough to get rid of Trump in the election next year - but it doesn't seem to be the "total exoneration" Trump is crowing about, more like a "not enough evidence" on collusion and a Scottish-style "not proven" on the obstruction of justice.
Though Mueller's investigation obviously wasn't the "witch hunt" and waste of time Trump and his allies portray it as - it sent his former lawyer and former campaign chief to prison, among others, and resulted in dozens of other indictments related to a genuine Russian conspiracy to interfere with the 2016 election and help Trump get elected, if people hadn't been expecting a direct route to impeachment from the report, it'd be a lot harder for Republicans to spin the results as some kind of victory.
And I'm with Bernie Sanders on wanting to see a lot more than just Barr's summary:
Though Mueller's investigation obviously wasn't the "witch hunt" and waste of time Trump and his allies portray it as - it sent his former lawyer and former campaign chief to prison, among others, and resulted in dozens of other indictments related to a genuine Russian conspiracy to interfere with the 2016 election and help Trump get elected, if people hadn't been expecting a direct route to impeachment from the report, it'd be a lot harder for Republicans to spin the results as some kind of victory.
And I'm with Bernie Sanders on wanting to see a lot more than just Barr's summary:
All we have is a summary, and that was written by a Trump pal.
We do know the report is full of details relating to investigations that are, as yet, not in the public domain. We have no idea who is the subject of these charges.
We do know the report is full of details relating to investigations that are, as yet, not in the public domain. We have no idea who is the subject of these charges.
CRI
Registered Chooser
I never expected much from the Mueller report, especially when it dragged on and on with little result. There was enough evidence in plain sight to have pulled in quite a few key players early on, and a few "quick wins" would have given the public more faith in the process - and I think could have halted/prevented at least some of the Trump/GOP's cruel and disasterous policies. I think a lot of those well-meaning but quite naive people put a lot of faith in the investigation process, because it let them believe things would "come out in the wash," and they need not worry too much about the awful things happening around them. I think they became more of a minority of Americans as time wore on. They certainly weren't complacent when it came to the 2018 mid term elections - flipping the House by a wide margin, despite the odds.
Remember though, the full report hasn't been released, only a short "opinion" on what it contains from someone with a long history of actions to exonerate Republicans from punishment, so it's possible there could be more meat buried in the sandwich while everyone is just wowing about the sprig of parsley pinned to the top of the bun. If the contents were completely benign, you'd think surely they'd want the full report out in the open to prove that. But then again, it could be more of the Trump administration's efforts to fuck with people's heads as a way to demoralise and maintain control.
I don't think the investigation, whether fully reported or not, will make an iota of difference to the 2020 Democratic Party primaries or the general. It will be old news by then, and may be eclipsed by the dozen or so cases going through courts that could nail Trump or those close to him. The most crucial factors that will impact on 2020 are continued efforts at voter suppression and faulty/hackable voting machines.
There's a large and strong field of candidates for the Democratic Presidential nomination, and far too early to speculate who even the front runners will be in 12 months time. However, it's not just Sanders who wants the full report released. In addition to the Speaker of the House and Senate Minority leader, nearly all the presidential candidates have called for this (possibly the others, too, but I only checked Twitter.)
CRI
Registered Chooser
This - is it that people have such short attention spans these days, or what? Do they just automatically read and digest soundbites without questioning the spin? Cripes.
Yuwipi Woman
Whack-A-Mole Queen
Yep. I'm old fashioned here. I want to read the entire report before I make up my mind what it says. IMHO, a lot of people offering opinions on this can't really have any idea what they're talking about. They don't have access to the report yet, any more than I do.
Regardless of what the report says, the opposition need to get their shit together. The more I examine the Democratic leadership, the more convinced I am that they'd rather see another Trump term, than ever elect someone from the left.
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Syria is unhappy
Netanyahu hails 'historic' US Golan decree
Assad can't do shit but that stupidity is very like to cause a lot of problems for a long time to come.
Netanyahu hails 'historic' US Golan decree
Assad can't do shit but that stupidity is very like to cause a lot of problems for a long time to come.
CRI
Registered Chooser
Well, although the Mueller report has yet to be released into the wild, with only a selective summary from Attorney General Barr to go on, quite a few key people are insisting the report totally exonerates Trump and his team. Some are going further to call for retribution for those who ordered the investigation, and really, anyone who suggested Trump or anyone in the Trump administration colluded with or may have been an asset of Russia. That's, uh, something . . .
(For those unfamiliar with Kerick, the deeply corrupt ex NY police commissioner imprisoned for 8 felony accounts, including tax fraud and lying to federal officials . . . ) Kerik, Ex-Head of New York Police, Gets 4 Years in Prison)
New York Post is running with these editorials:
How to end our national nightmare — probe Hillary Clinton again
We should all be celebrating the collapse of Hillary’s big lie
and, Wall Street Journal going with these:
Mueller and the Obama Accounting - The former President now owes the country an explanation for the historic abuse of government surveillance powers.
Mueller Is Done. Now Probe the Real Scandal - Americans deserve a full accounting of the missteps of Comey and the FBI.
The former White House press secretary is tweeting stuff like this:
And the current White House Press Secretary is going on camera with this.
It's unimaginable that supporters of Bill Clinton (after his Impeachment acquittal) or Hillary Clinton (after the House Select Committee's fruitless questioning about Benghazi) would have even whispered the suggestion that those responsible for those investigations should be held to account, given the outcome. It would have been seen as contemptible.
But here, we have all these Trump mouthpieces calling out for show trials, right? They want to see Clinton and Obama imprisoned for, something, anything, or better yet, executed. Yep, I think they want them dead, and I think a lot of American citizens also want this. Fuck me, that's grim.
I'd like to think it's not something that could ever happen, but the way things are going, who knows?
(For those unfamiliar with Kerick, the deeply corrupt ex NY police commissioner imprisoned for 8 felony accounts, including tax fraud and lying to federal officials . . . ) Kerik, Ex-Head of New York Police, Gets 4 Years in Prison)
New York Post is running with these editorials:
How to end our national nightmare — probe Hillary Clinton again
We should all be celebrating the collapse of Hillary’s big lie
and, Wall Street Journal going with these:
Mueller and the Obama Accounting - The former President now owes the country an explanation for the historic abuse of government surveillance powers.
Mueller Is Done. Now Probe the Real Scandal - Americans deserve a full accounting of the missteps of Comey and the FBI.
The former White House press secretary is tweeting stuff like this:
And the current White House Press Secretary is going on camera with this.
It's unimaginable that supporters of Bill Clinton (after his Impeachment acquittal) or Hillary Clinton (after the House Select Committee's fruitless questioning about Benghazi) would have even whispered the suggestion that those responsible for those investigations should be held to account, given the outcome. It would have been seen as contemptible.
But here, we have all these Trump mouthpieces calling out for show trials, right? They want to see Clinton and Obama imprisoned for, something, anything, or better yet, executed. Yep, I think they want them dead, and I think a lot of American citizens also want this. Fuck me, that's grim.
I'd like to think it's not something that could ever happen, but the way things are going, who knows?
krtek a houby
Anger is Hi-NRG
This has to be the biggest mindfuck of an administration, yet. The Americans here (or rather, the right wing ones) are delighted. Ugh.
CRI
Registered Chooser
Yup - on one hand, I am astonished that so many Americans seem so willing to embrace authoritarianism and have placed their faith in a "leader" an his entourage who seem to embody nearly all the values that they claim to believe in. But I think like many folks, I too readily dismissed the Tea Partiers as just a god-bothering whacky fringe and an ineffectual knee jerk reaction to a Black man in the White House. In reality, the Tea Party formation represented a stage in a gradual process that started during the Reagan years, perhaps even earlier under Nixon, to move towards a one party, right wing state.
During the Reagan years, I remember thinking the three branches of government model was not as robust as most Americans assumed. With Cable news and the advent of 24 hour tv, the President was a constant presence in every home, whereas many people didn't even know who their Senator or Congressman/woman were. I thought he was vile, but plenty thought he was charming and a "good leader"
. He also connected with the so-called "moral majority," beginning that convergence of GOP and fundy Christian values. That process continued to march on, even if it was under the surface or still seen as fringe much of the time.Anyhow, bringing it up to more recent years, it didn't take much scratching of the surface to bring out plenty of people willing to trumpet values espoused by earlier generations of Americans that perhaps we'd thought had been put away in a box after civil rights legislation was enacted in the 60's - white, male, Christian supremacy, militarism, justification of genocide, institutional misogyny, Dominionism, etc. During the 2016 elections, I don't think many Democrats could accept that so many people had genuinely embraced these beliefs, or that the entire Republican party was now dominated by them. There was still the belief in "if they go low, we go high" and I think Clinton thought she could appeal to Republicans who were appalled by Trump's views and behaviour (Spoiler - there were no such Republicans.) I think by the 2018 midterms, Democratic party supporters and candidates had twigged that most Republicans were pretty well beyond redemption so the focus should be on getting everyone else to the polls, and on the back of that, they flipped the US House by a large margin.
Jury is still out on whether there is much anyone can do to halt further descent into autocracy - for example if 2020 elections are suspended, or there is enough "tampering" to either skew the results or give an excuse to invalidate them. The Democratic Party will have to keep a majority in the House, pick up the Senate and ideally take the White House, too, to have a chance of halting the rot. I want to believe it's possible, but who knows?
Another rotten thing on a personal level is knowing that practically all the kids I went to school with, was in 4H with, hung out with in the summer, etc. have grown up into Americans who would clap and hoot if Clinton and/or Obama were imprisoned - no matter if through a kangaroo court on trumped (pun intended) up charges. I'd wager quite a few of them would be delighted to see Obama especially hanging from a tree. Well, it's something a lot of their ancestors enjoyed, after all, so you could say it's a family tradition.
All sort of fucks up your memories of growing up though . . .
If the report was as the orange president claims, it would have been released (except the bits concerning ongoing investigations) by now.
There's very likely more to this than Trump wants public,
There's very likely more to this than Trump wants public,
Ted Striker
Foot's on the other hand
Yup. I still can't work out whether Trump's played a blinder on this or not.
It was him, and his textbook unhinged early hours twitter-rants about Muellers witch hunt, that pointed to something being 'up', moreso (well, not moreso, but still...) than any Dem accusation.
And now there, apparently, isn't...
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