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what no annual poppy bunfight thread?

poppy?


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Thing is, I remember doing the remembrance day parade stuff with the scouts thirty odd years ago, it was always solemn and dignified. The names read out from the memorial included surnames of families still in the village, Stenners, Bucks, Sharps, you’d look around at the faces, people remembering fathers, brothers, uncles. Many living still had a connection to the loss, would have been there, would have got that telegram. It had meaning.

Now there’s barely anyone even with that close a connection to those lost in WW2, now 76 years past. It just seems performative pro-war patriotism with no personal connection to the blood and horror, virtue-signalling nonsense. Not what it was.


It is not what it was but is not really virtue signalling either. My mum and dad are still with us and they remember their fathers, RAF and Royal Navy respectively. They came through unscathed but a number of their mates didn’t, their kids will still be knocking around in their 70’s and 80’s. I remember my grandfathers. I am so very grateful to live in a time where I am not asked to do what they had to do. Or worse, what my great uncle had to to, his name is on the Menin Gate. Of course I never knew him nor did my mum, but the connection is there, these young men and some women left our leafy, safe town and put themselves out there for what was thought to be a greater good and they never came home. Their families suffered a lifetime of pain as a result. That pain decends the generations. Anything more than a simple poppy in a lapel and 30 minutes stood outside in November is fucking bobbins though.
 
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Made the mistake of mentioning to someone i don't know that well that i do not love the local town's rash of crocheted poppies and they were truly horrified by me. That was interesting, it was as if i'd done a big transgression to say anything even slightly mocking or negative about the decorations. Won't be doing that again in a hurry.

Did you at least get the opportunity to explain why you felt like that? Because I don't think I could have held that kind of thing back, myself.

If the subject ever comes up IRL, I'm definitely giving voice to my unease concerning the excessive and erasing iconography, as well as the mawkish sentimentality that seems to have inappropriately crept in on an occasion that, in my unabashed opinion, should actually be kept a little bit grim in order to properly remind us.
 
In my home town Square yesterday there were a gaggle of old and young dressed in uniform or war-time fashion with war-time usic blaring out.

One of the gallant youngsters stopped me and said 'Can see you have not got your poppy yet, lets fix that' :hmm:

Asked her how her own family were affected by the wars and she didn't even know.
 
Made the mistake of mentioning to someone i don't know that well that i do not love the local town's rash of crocheted poppies and they were truly horrified by me. That was interesting, it was as if i'd done a big transgression to say anything even slightly mocking or negative about the decorations. Won't be doing that again in a hurry.

Yeah it seems to me that a big part of this stuff is the licence it gives people to have a go at anyone not going along with it. Ironically because it's 'not political.'
 
Did you at least get the opportunity to explain why you felt like that? Because I don't think I could have held that kind of thing back, myself.

If the subject ever comes up IRL, I'm definitely giving voice to my unease concerning the excessive and erasing iconography, as well as the mawkish sentimentality that seems to have inappropriately crept in on an occasion that, in my unabashed opinion, should actually be kept a little bit grim in order to properly remind us.
Thinking about it now, it was like mentioning this feeling just confirmed for them that i'm not Not One Of Us / Not Properly British, in their eyes, maybe i'm imagining it but they know me well enough to know i'm a jew and my parents foreigners and it felt like the way they looked at me was kind of oh of course you wouldn't understand. maybe i'm imagaining that idk, but like i don't have a license to disparage the great national remembrancing or something. It was like i'd taken a shit on the queen, their faces. Very weird.
 
Made the mistake of mentioning to someone i don't know that well that i do not love the local town's rash of crocheted poppies and they were truly horrified by me. That was interesting, it was as if i'd done a big transgression to say anything even slightly mocking or negative about the decorations. Won't be doing that again in a hurry.
Did you not say, "It's not an extra halloween party, it's not an Xmas fairly lights competition between neighbours, it's supposed to be the solemn rememberance of a catastrophic tragedy that killed millions. Instead, we get poppy cakes, poppy knitting and all sorts of celebratory nationalistic shite"?
 
Thinking about it now, it was like mentioning this feeling just confirmed for them that i'm not Not One Of Us / Not Properly British, in their eyes, maybe i'm imagining it but they know me well enough to know i'm a jew and my parents foreigners and it felt like the way they looked at me was kind of oh of course you wouldn't understand. maybe i'm imagaining that idk, but like i don't have a license to disparage the great national remembrancing or something. It was like i'd taken a shit on the queen, their faces. Very weird.
I know exactly what you mean. C.f. when I was asked about what I was doing to celebrate the queen’s jubilee and I simply said nothing and when pushed, I then just said, “I’m not a fan of the monarchy” and the result was that the woman I was speaking to told lots of people how much I had offended her. True story, exactly as straightforward as I have just reported it. Merely not obeying the groupthink is enough to be a heretic, let alone actually doing anything outside the prescribed parameters. And I also don’t have a British background.
 
The tacky overuse of the poppy iconography is just baffling. Who on Earth thinks that's a good idea? It's like they use the flowers to censor the reality of war - the blood and guts running into the muddy ground, the life-changing and disfiguring injuries, even the soldiers themselves are obscured in a wave of poppies. Anonymised in silhouette, the complexities of the human beings that fought and suffered and died are rendered down into cookie-cutter symbolism. The negligence of the brass in accounting for their losses has been re-enlisted as The Unknown Warrior.

If I were in charge of organising this shit, I would make damn sure that everyone gets an opportunity to appoint themselves with the grim realities of total armed conflict. The people who killed and died weren't unknown to their friends, families and communities, and they need not have been pushed to kill and perish so senselessly.
I'm not the greatest expert on WWI poetry, but I always find it fascinating how the WWI poets seem to have predicted this, or it feels like they wouldn't be surprised by it.
The boys came back. Bands played and flags were flying,
And Yellow-Pressmen thronged the sunlit street
To cheer the soldiers who’d refrained from dying,
And hear the music of returning feet.
‘Of all the thrills and ardours War has brought,
This moment is the finest.’ (So they thought.)

And so on.
Let’s not attract them. She whinged loudly about being labelled ‘fascist’ but the news report here doesn’t mention her working with Infidels.

"war pub to battle rumours" is a great choice of words.
This one is fantastic.
 
I'm not the greatest expert on WWI poetry, but I always find it fascinating how the WWI poets seem to have predicted this, or it feels like they wouldn't be surprised by it.
The boys came back. Bands played and flags were flying,
And Yellow-Pressmen thronged the sunlit street
To cheer the soldiers who’d refrained from dying,

And hear the music of returning feet.
‘Of all the thrills and ardours War has brought,
This moment is the finest.’ (So they thought.)

And so on.

"war pub to battle rumours" is a great choice of words.

This one is fantastic.
Which has reminded me of.....


 
Thinking about it now, it was like mentioning this feeling just confirmed for them that i'm not Not One Of Us / Not Properly British, in their eyes, maybe i'm imagining it but they know me well enough to know i'm a jew and my parents foreigners and it felt like the way they looked at me was kind of oh of course you wouldn't understand. maybe i'm imagaining that idk, but like i don't have a license to disparage the great national remembrancing or something. It was like i'd taken a shit on the queen, their faces. Very weird.

Fair point, I can understand why you might not want to pursue the matter. I think I would get a much different reaction, although I also get the impression that the Colonel Blimp types are also a bit thicker on the ground in your area.
 
Found this extract from book on remembrance.


Just the few pages I read have put me off buying a poppy.

I grew up in 60s/70s in naval Town. But can't remember remembrance day being like it is now. The book says in 70s there was decline in support for military. Not being against it but lack of interest in it.

Iraq and Afghanistan changed that as well as New Labour under Blair and Brown trying to forge a new patriotism.

Brown gave speech to Fabisn society in 2006. Saying that Remembrance day is equivalent to Bastille day or July fourth. Unites the nation around what he said were British values of liberty, fairness and responsibility.

This fed into the new Citizenship classes. Gradually this has seen the militarization of citizenship.

Cameron continued this view of common British identity around remembrance.

Iraq war was a problem for New Labour. Millions opposed it. The government / military were afraid things could turn back to the seventies with widening gap between the military/ establishment and public.

The Royal British Legion have stepped into this in two ways to reduce the gap.

Supplying teaching materials to schools to be used in citizenship classes. These include ideas like encouraging children to learn to wear a poppy and respect military personnel sacrifices. This is part of becoming a good citizen. So get them young and drill it into them.

Second thing RBL did was support idea of Military Covenent. Promote it. Idea that there is quasi spiritual relationship between the British people and military. This was response to the massive marches against Iraq war and realisation by Joe Public that it had been started on false premise. Like what brogdale said about WW1 it was realised if nothing was done Joe public might be lost to the establishment. So something had to be done. RBL played important role in this.

So far from being a neutral charity helping ex servicemen the RBL sees itself as supporting the military itself. With a political role to prop up the establishment.

Though as previous poster has said "banal patriotism" can hide this.

What is interesting is that both Cameron and Gordon Brown thought that Rememberance could unify the nation and bring people together.

As posts here show this particular form of citizenship/national identity meant to unite people has done the opposite.

Its been formed since late 1990s to now. Partly to deal with opposition to unpopular wars.

Imo their is something dangerous about it. As posters have pointed out any discussion about it and one is regarded as odd for not believing in this modern patriotism.

Its like all the opposition to Iraq has been purposefully put aside.
 
Just to show how successful RBL have been Labour controlled Lambeth have own version of the military covenant.


The Community covenant is local version of national one.

One thing I noticed is that he encourages integration of military into civilian society. Part of militarisation of society.

It takes for granted what it says is moral obligation between Nation, government and armed forces. Which national covenant says is enduring. So part and parcel of this country. It presents itself as beyond left/right everyday politics. As something which unites the nation.

Complete unquestioned acceptance of role of military by a Labour Council.
 
Found this extract from book on remembrance.


Just the few pages I read have put me off buying a poppy.

I grew up in 60s/70s in naval Town. But can't remember remembrance day being like it is now. The book says in 70s there was decline in support for military. Not being against it but lack of interest in it.

Iraq and Afghanistan changed that as well as New Labour under Blair and Brown trying to forge a new patriotism.

Brown gave speech to Fabisn society in 2006. Saying that Remembrance day is equivalent to Bastille day or July fourth. Unites the nation around what he said were British values of liberty, fairness and responsibility.

This fed into the new Citizenship classes. Gradually this has seen the militarization of citizenship.

Cameron continued this view of common British identity around remembrance.

Iraq war was a problem for New Labour. Millions opposed it. The government / military were afraid things could turn back to the seventies with widening gap between the military/ establishment and public.

The Royal British Legion have stepped into this in two ways to reduce the gap.

Supplying teaching materials to schools to be used in citizenship classes. These include ideas like encouraging children to learn to wear a poppy and respect military personnel sacrifices. This is part of becoming a good citizen. So get them young and drill it into them.

Second thing RBL did was support idea of Military Covenent. Promote it. Idea that there is quasi spiritual relationship between the British people and military. This was response to the massive marches against Iraq war and realisation by Joe Public that it had been started on false premise. Like what brogdale said about WW1 it was realised if nothing was done Joe public might be lost to the establishment. So something had to be done. RBL played important role in this.

So far from being a neutral charity helping ex servicemen the RBL sees itself as supporting the military itself. With a political role to prop up the establishment.

Though as previous poster has said "banal patriotism" can hide this.

What is interesting is that both Cameron and Gordon Brown thought that Rememberance could unify the nation and bring people together.

As posts here show this particular form of citizenship/national identity meant to unite people has done the opposite.

Its been formed since late 1990s to now. Partly to deal with opposition to unpopular wars.

Imo their is something dangerous about it. As posters have pointed out any discussion about it and one is regarded as odd for not believing in this modern patriotism.

Its like all the opposition to Iraq has been purposefully put aside.
One thing — banal nationalism doesn’t hide this: it’s very much part of what you are describing. Banal nationalism is nation building via the normalisation of the signs and symbols of patriotism taken to be everyday parts of the backdrop. Every time a news reader quietly wears a poppy whilst reading the news, that’s sending a message about it being normal to view the military in a particular, nation-building way.
 
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New Despicable Me sequel
 
The tacky overuse of the poppy iconography is just baffling. Who on Earth thinks that's a good idea? It's like they use the flowers to censor the reality of war - the blood and guts running into the muddy ground, the life-changing and disfiguring injuries, even the soldiers themselves are obscured in a wave of poppies. Anonymised in silhouette, the complexities of the human beings that fought and suffered and died are rendered down into cookie-cutter symbolism. The negligence of the brass in accounting for their losses has been re-enlisted as The Unknown Warrior.

If I were in charge of organising this shit, I would make damn sure that everyone gets an opportunity to appoint themselves with the grim realities of total armed conflict. The people who killed and died weren't unknown to their friends, families and communities, and they need not have been pushed to kill and perish so senselessly.

This is a great post.

I put 20p in a poppy appeal thing in a chip shop and I picked up a poppy left on the floor at work cos it felt sad to leave it in the dirt. But really this is what I feel. And I'm not rushing to wear a poppy. And ofc, members of my family died in WW1 and WW2 like most families tbh. And it is v powerful when you see the memorial by a church in a village and see how many fucking people were killed even from small places....
 
I didn't see this but a security guard told me yesterday...

There is a big cast iron rememberence bench in the local shopping centre. Early morning yesterday the security guy spotted a guy shooting up on it.
 
I didn't see this but a security guard told me yesterday...

There is a big cast iron rememberence bench in the local shopping centre. Early morning yesterday the security guy spotted a guy shooting up on it.
A sombre mark of #respect for the injured and maimed and how their treatment with morphine resulted in addiction.

As journalist Anne Brigaudeau writes about the novel, "the 14-18 butchery sometimes overshadowed the postwar period, where the dead hero was preferred to the battered survivor. Today in France the French have forgotten that the worship of the fallen soldier generated lucrative profits, from the war memorials to the military cemeteries."


 
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