What is so wrong with looking after 'ones own'??

[durruti02]

oh fer fucks sake. Are you being paid to write moronisms durutti, or are you just really really really fucking bored?

You can't actually believe this load of fucking shite can you?

belboid your post has NO content and NO arguement .. what is it you think .. ( p.s. usually on discussion boards people put counteerr arguments you know )

so what shit and moronisms i have written?

p.s. posted before i noticed your later posts

 

[durruti02]

Durrutti, on the issue of "looking after your own", I can see where you're coming from, but a lot of the stuff you argue for, like sons and daughters policies and closed shops would, IMO, be harmful to working class people in this country on a lot of levels.

Your whole argument rests on this idea that there's only so much of everything to go around and we have to make sure that "indigenous" workers get it before anybody else, which leaves us scrapping with immigrant workers in some zero sum game when we should be taking the fight to the bosses, not demanding our share of what is already there, but demanding more..

ok so you CAN see where i am coming from .. so you apologising for saying 'this fucking shit' ????? .. but thank you for a proper response ..

whatever

my argument does NOT and has NEVER rested on " .. there's only so much of everything to go around.." ...

it is about how you build resisitance , how you create strong communities, how you create the power we need to deal with the WHOLE picture/world rather than JUST our street/workplace ..

this is totally differrent from the idea i am concerned about fighting for the scraps ..

 

[durruti02]

1 .. so i've been thinking about this and i'm going to answer the question in some way. flame me if you will but this is how i see it.

i grew up on the essex-london borders, and odd hinterland of old-school working class prejudice and second and third gen immigration. if you define background as 'your own', then the people of gants hill and ilford that i grew up with are my people. a mix of aspiring white working classes, apsiring jewish wannabe middle-classes, and assorted 2nd and 3rd gen sub-continent middle-classes. this is, of course, a mass generalisation for the process of a shorter post. if i'm looking after my own by these standards, i'm looking out for the needs of people not just of long-term naturalised englishness, but whose parents or grandparents moved here for a better life, escaping prejudice or violence or just plain trying to do better economically. and who am i to complain about that? i'd do the same. i grew up around kids whose parents or grandparents fled the holocaust or earlier anti-semetic pogroms, whose parents fled slavery, the caste system, the empire, or just said "fuck this, we can do better in the uk". and i don't blame them. most of them did better than those who would probably be classified as ethnically british. good for them, they made their lives better according to their own standards. who wouldn;t want that for themselves.

2 .. what other ways can i define "one's own"? here in brixton i live with people born outside the uk. my downstairs neighbours are Mediterranean. my next door neighbours are jamaican rastas. across the road are albanians.

3 .. last week i started a new job. alongside myself there was a black british bloke, a guy born in india and raised in the uk who has a thicker london accent than me, a west african immigrant and an east african immigrant. my first training mentor was polish, my second born and bred walthamstow.

4 .. my point? if i owe anything to my "own" then i support immigration. centuries of immigration has helped make my city and communities what they are. it's given me friends, co-workers, housemates, neighbours. it's helped people i care about and love grow up safe and affluent. it's helped keep london, my beloved home city, alive and functioning.

5 .. what's wrong with immigration? .. it's used to drive down wages and damage working class unification.

6 .. it has many valid criticisms, all of which can be fought (IMO) by working class activism and unification; by putting aside notions of ethnic solidarity and "one's own" based on shared backgrounds we can, hopefully, overcome the bosses and their attempts to turn us against each other. this may be hard, it may not work. but the british working classes, whether individuals like it or not, have more in common with polish migrants than they do with the bosses class, and it is the exploiters and the dividers who are MY enemy.

that is all i have to say on the matter. let the flaming commence x

good usefull post bluestreak

on 1 2 3 4 etc i totally agree .. i am welsh english and jewish .. we pretty well all in this country are mongrels of some description .. .. and MY community is black jewish chinese scots irish etc etc etc

BUT I have NEVER thought or bought race into this discussion .. ( that has only been the liberals who assume race not class is at the bottom of everything )

and britian is what it is today BECAUSE of migration .. forced or otherwise AND imperialism .. but that is history .. if we like it cos of that then we should just say capitalism/imperialism and slavery were cool and forget calling our selves socialists .. ONLY inequality could have created a world like we have today full of refugees and broken families ( i would like to think that free communism would allow for free movement of individuals too!) AND fantastic new peoples and cultures!

but the issue is about today .. i agree and have never disagreed that we need to work with immigrants and organise migrant workers ..

BUT at the moment the left/@ are essentially silent on an issue that is inflaming a large % of the country .. we need to be honest about the processess and principles and progressive about the solutions ..

i am glad to see in para 5 you properly admit ( unlike many of the left what immigration is used for )

and support ALL you suggest in para 6

my disagreement is that i belive you can not respect someone else till you respect yourself ( viva stax!) , that you can not support other groups, areas ,streets, workplaces etc until you are sorted in your own ..

this is not ethnic or exclusive .. it is just a fundamental building block whose use when missed out has seen a millions leftists dream castles collapse into the quick sand ..

 

[durruti02]

Maybe it would be interesting to hear who durruti and balders think 'their own' is. Personally I couldn't point to any group of people that I would describe as my own unless it's my family, and there's only six of them.

he he .. fruitloop mate .. simply those who i live nearest to and work with .. white black saesneg and cymreig ( did you know welsh means foreigner or slave?)

i used those words deliberately to start debate as they are the words used by SO SO SO many ordinary people .. who do not understand ( or understand only too well! ) the ways of the liberal left

 

[belboid]

belboid your post has NO content and NO arguement .. what is it you think .. ( p.s. usually on discussion boards people put counteerr arguments you know )

i didnt think yours had much either tho mate. It just looked like another attempt at outflanking the right by adopting their terms - a strategy that has failed time and time again. Reclaim the flag next? Or has that one been done already.

 

[nwnm]

durruti02 if you thought class was at the bottom of everything yourself you wouldn't have such a problem with working class people moving here from other countries. Theres too much of this shit about immigration on urban at the mo
BIN/BAN NOW

 

[durruti02]

I dont actually think that is entirely fair either. It's more of a 'hate the sin, love the sinner' kinda thing. Some christians probably manage to do that quite genuinely, but for most it's a bullshit cover-up. Even if they individually don't hate any immigrant, it is fairly obvious that should there (or rather balders', durutti doesnt actually agree with his solution, just with his obsession) immigration plan come into force, many people would still extend the 'principle' quite logically to actual immigrants - 'you're the cunt who's stolen my job and house, take that' kinda bullshit. How they fail to see that, I really don't know.

i like that .. was brought up a ina xtian socialist family!

your last sentance is the rub though!! yes that IS A real danger .. a VERY real danger ..

my arguement to that though is nothing we or the left do can to make things worse .. just listen to your colleagues in the pub on the radio in the scum press .. it is out there all ready .. the horse has bolted .. society is divided

IF we offer an honest classist progressive strategy we can ONLY make things better

the other issue is when we remain powerless that ACTUALLY we can do very little for those who deserve our help

 

[durruti02]

durruti02 if you thought class was at the bottom of everything yourself you wouldn't have such a problem with working class people moving here from other countries. Theres too much of this shit about immigration on urban at the mo
BIN/BAN NOW

nwnm .. you have SO missed the point and i can only think you are NOT reading the posts or it is your liberal principles

i welcome immigrants here .. but NOT as part of neo liberal re structuring .. and more importantly you will see IF you try to read and undrtand my posts that it is about how do we create the power to liberate ALL w/c /people from the need to migrate

 

[bluestreak]

i guess part of the reason the left is divided on this is because everyone brings different agendas and experience to the table. i'm broadly anarcho-left and my stance is that the only answer is working class unity and welcome the incomers. i won't support any other agenda. and many others won't support mine. the best i can hope to do is try and convince individuals and small groups where and when i can the value of immigration and the potential effectiveness of class solidarity.

 

[durruti02]

i didnt think yours had much either tho mate. It just looked like another attempt at outflanking the right by adopting their terms - a strategy that has failed time and time again. Reclaim the flag next? Or has that one been done already.

note my post to fruitloop .. it is the words that SO many people use .. tbh i never use them .. though i do regard all around me from wherever in the world as 'my own'

p.s. your initial response was insulting and daft .. your later ones fine

 

[durruti02]

i guess part of the reason the left is divided on this is because everyone brings different agendas and experience to the table. i'm broadly anarcho-left and my stance is that the only answer is working class unity and welcome the incomers. i won't support any other agenda. and many others won't support mine. the best i can hope to do is try and convince individuals and small groups where and when i can the value of immigration and the potential effectiveness of class solidarity.

but blue .. you need to engage with the reality that leftism @ or otherwise is minute/impotent/has no influence now and you need to ask why .. i am suggesting that actually imigration is a key example of how the left/@ have become almost totally alienated from ordinary people .. i am USING the immigration debate to highlight this

and the problem with the idea that we simply 'welcome newcomers' or chant 'refugees welcome here!' is that this is alienating to those affected by immigration, that this shows howwe are not listening to peoples worries, that we are no understanding what is going on, that we have got the plot wrong in fact..

worse the left often when people do state they are worried they are condemned as racists or worse facists ..

racism and facism .. and indeed the ability of the bosses to undercut unions/workers with cheap labour are a symptom of a WEAK w/c .. THAT is what needs to be dealt with first and foremost .. and as i say that can only properly be done starting at the very base .. family street workplace etc etc .. this is true @ism

 

[Lock&Light]

so if you haven't even the balls to do so yourself how can you expect anyone else to?
dismal. and snide.

I discovered a long time ago that my complaints are never taken seriously by most of the mods. That's why I don't bother to report nasty posts. Doesn't stop them being nasty posts, though.

 

[brasicritique]

Duruti an balders you are both wasting your time posting these threads- as far as the left are concerned all white working class people are racist, lazy, thick etc no amount of your posts will change these perceptions, or the attitudes of these people. They are fantasists. This is because white middleclass people need to define themselves in opposition to the other. Whereas before they used to define themselves against people in terms of class race gender and sexual orientation they can no longer do this-so they stick to class an adopt a every thing wrong in society is the fault of white working class people full stop. All your threads do is show the usual bunch of cunts up for what they are and highlight there lack of vision- Globalisation has shown who the winners are -white middleclass England who need low inflation to buy a second house and there urban75 working class middleclass wannabees - violent wanker, kyber dosser, bellvoid, ninodimbo,donna forentass to name a few of the posters who are giving great PR to the far right, until these people stop dictating and start listening things are going to get much much worse

And before you all cry 'wascist' If anyone on these threads really believes that the open door globalisation policy of the liberal left is going to benefit urban black and Asian communities then you are even more insane than i thought.

 

[Streathamite]

I believe totally in 'looking after my own'...who happen to be the working classes everywhere, all around the world, regardless of race, colour or location.

 

[durruti02]

Duruti an balders you are both wasting your time posting these threads- as far as the left are concerned all white working class people are racist, lazy, thick etc no amount of your posts will change these perceptions, or the attitudes of these people. They are fantasists. This is because white middleclass people need to define themselves in opposition to the other. Whereas before they used to define themselves against people in terms of class race gender and sexual orientation they can no longer do this-so they stick to class an adopt a every thing wrong in society is the fault of white working class people full stop. All your threads do is show the usual bunch of cunts up for what they are and highlight there lack of vision- Globalisation has shown who the winners are -white middleclass England who need low inflation to buy a second house and there urban75 working class middleclass wannabees - violent wanker, kyber dosser, bellvoid, ninodimbo,donna forentass to name a few of the posters who are giving great PR to the far right, until these people stop dictating and start listening things are going to get much much worse

And before you all cry 'wascist' If anyone on these threads really believes that the open door globalisation policy of the liberal left is going to benefit urban black and Asian communities then you are even more insane than i thought.

fair play .. would only add i think or rather hope a lot of other people read the threads who do not post!!

 

[durruti02]

I believe totally in 'looking after my own'...who happen to be the working classes everywhere, all around the world, regardless of race, colour or location.

put how can you help the far flung members of 'your own' if you can not help the old dear next fking door!

 

[belboid]

Duruti an balders you are both wasting your time posting these threads- as far as the left are concerned all white working class people are racist, lazy, thick etc no amount of your posts will change these perceptions, or the attitudes of these people. They are fantasists. This is because white middleclass people need to define themselves in opposition to the other. Whereas before they used to define themselves against people in terms of class race gender and sexual orientation they can no longer do this-so they stick to class an adopt a every thing wrong in society is the fault of white working class people full stop. All your threads do is show the usual bunch of cunts up for what they are and highlight there lack of vision- Globalisation has shown who the winners are -white middleclass England who need low inflation to buy a second house and there urban75 working class middleclass wannabees - violent wanker, kyber dosser, bellvoid, ninodimbo,donna forentass to name a few of the posters who are giving great PR to the far right, until these people stop dictating and start listening things are going to get much much worse

And before you all cry 'wascist' If anyone on these threads really believes that the open door globalisation policy of the liberal left is going to benefit urban black and Asian communities then you are even more insane than i thought.

another fact free bunch of lies from brassicarsehole. point out one post where I have said or implied the white w-c are dumb racists. or withdraw your pathetic set of lies. all you (and plenty of others) do is shout the same old bollocks over and over, without ever justifying it - go 'ooh you're calling me a wasist [note: it is always important to missepll the word racist here in order to 'prove' your point]'. You're a liar and a fool. No fuck off.

 

[Streathamite]

put how can you help the far flung members of 'your own' if you can not help the old dear next fking door!

because, dearie, you can help BOTH at the same time, through effective campaigning and community action, whilst all the time persuading both that the boss class and capitalism are the REAL enemies.
and UNLESS you do that - all of that - you'll never get anywhere.
as you would know, were you a socialist.
us proles ain't stupid you know, we can join up the dots and realise how the bosses and the govt use immigration to play workers off against each other.
As you would also realise, were you a socialist.
you really do have a low opinion of workers, don'tcha?
backatcha

 

[bluestreak]

but blue .. you need to engage with the reality that leftism @ or otherwise is minute/impotent/has no influence now and you need to ask why .. i am suggesting that actually imigration is a key example of how the left/@ have become almost totally alienated from ordinary people .. i am USING the immigration debate to highlight this

and the problem with the idea that we simply 'welcome newcomers' or chant 'refugees welcome here!' is that this is alienating to those affected by immigration, that this shows howwe are not listening to peoples worries, that we are no understanding what is going on, that we have got the plot wrong in fact..

worse the left often when people do state they are worried they are condemned as racists or worse facists ..

racism and facism .. and indeed the ability of the bosses to undercut unions/workers with cheap labour are a symptom of a WEAK w/c .. THAT is what needs to be dealt with first and foremost .. and as i say that can only properly be done starting at the very base .. family street workplace etc etc .. this is true @ism

perhaps leftism and anarchism don't have any influence. i never said they did. and as far as i'm concerned refugees are welcome here. it might alienate people who say, oh that anarchist wanker likes them refugees who take our jobs, but fuck em. if they ask me i'll explain why refugees are welcome here. and IME a major portion of the people who are worried about immigration are racists, or politically very ignorant, or of a political mindset where the bosses are undefeatable so they attack their own. in all cases education and optimism are the keys.

 

[treelover]

One of the ironic things is the many of the 'working class of the world' when they finally get here or another affluent country is to try and put as much distance between them and the indigenous working class as they can.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Duruti an balders you are both wasting your time posting these threads- as far as the left are concerned all white working class people are racist, lazy, thick etc no amount of your posts will change these perceptions, or the attitudes of these people. They are fantasists. This is because white middleclass people need to define themselves in opposition to the other. Whereas before they used to define themselves against people in terms of class race gender and sexual orientation they can no longer do this-so they stick to class an adopt a every thing wrong in society is the fault of white working class people full stop. All your threads do is show the usual bunch of cunts up for what they are and highlight there lack of vision- Globalisation has shown who the winners are -white middleclass England who need low inflation to buy a second house and there urban75 working class middleclass wannabees - violent wanker, kyber dosser, bellvoid, ninodimbo,donna forentass to name a few of the posters who are giving great PR to the far right, until these people stop dictating and start listening things are going to get much much worse

And before you all cry 'wascist' If anyone on these threads really believes that the open door globalisation policy of the liberal left is going to benefit urban black and Asian communities then you are even more insane than i thought.

I see you're busy doing your usual posturing as "the authentic voice of the working class".

Nice bit of name-calling though, little keyboard warrior.

 

[treelover]

Unfortunately though, they are not: the campaign against the welfare reform bill for instance has had zero support from the far left, even though it will affect literally millions, meanwhile yet another 'anti-war' march is planned for March.

'because, dearie, you can help BOTH at the same time, through effective campaigning and community action, whilst all the time persuading both that the boss class and capitalism are the REAL enemies.
and UNLESS you do that - all of that - you'll never get anywhere.
as you would know, were you a socialist.

 

[Streathamite]

Unfortunately though, they are not: the campaign against the welfare reform bill for instance has had zero support from the far left, even though it will affect literally millions, meanwhile yet another 'anti-war' march is planned for March.

err, clear as mud. who are 'they' and how does this relate to my post?

 

[becky p]

Duruti an balders you are both wasting your time posting these threads- as far as the left are concerned all white working class people are racist, lazy, thick etc no amount of your posts will change these perceptions, or the attitudes of these people. They are fantasists. This is because white middleclass people need to define themselves in opposition to the other. Whereas before they used to define themselves against people in terms of class race gender and sexual orientation they can no longer do this-so they stick to class an adopt a every thing wrong in society is the fault of white working class people full stop. All your threads do is show the usual bunch of cunts up for what they are and highlight there lack of vision- Globalisation has shown who the winners are -white middleclass England who need low inflation to buy a second house and there urban75 working class middleclass wannabees - violent wanker, kyber dosser, bellvoid, ninodimbo,donna forentass to name a few of the posters who are giving great PR to the far right, until these people stop dictating and start listening things are going to get much much worse

And before you all cry 'wascist' If anyone on these threads really believes that the open door globalisation policy of the liberal left is going to benefit urban black and Asian communities then you are even more insane than i thought.

I think that may be true, though i don't really want it to be.
It does seem that there are a lot of people who think of themselves as very radical. And think that anybody who does not agree with them 101% is simply not worth bothering with.
I have found the arguements against supporting Immigration really interesting.
I suppose some people will decide that means i am some form of racist.

 

[nino_savatte]

Any chance that you have a linky or a reference for that. Could be quite useful.

Bearing in mind that BNP supporters in Dagenham are saying off the record that 'we should do to the muslims what Hitler did to the Jews' its a very pertinent point to those who think 'well I'm mixed race / jewish / not muslim I'll be OK' well you won't cos who do you think the boneheads will go for after they've expelled the muslims?

Unfortunately, no...I am relying on my memory.

 

[nino_savatte]

so if you haven't even the balls to do so yourself how can you expect anyone else to?
dismal. and snide.

Isn't it just? Only to be expected from Urban's own parrot voice of 'reason'.

 

[audiotech]

put how can you help the far flung members of 'your own' if you can not help the old dear next fking door!

I try to do both meself.

 

[audiotech]

One of the ironic things is the many of the 'working class of the world' when they finally get here or another affluent country is to try and put as much distance between them and the indigenous working class as they can.

Not in my experience, being of Irish immigrant extraction and having a schoolfriend called John Mohammed (mother white British you see).

 

[audiotech]

I think that may be true, though i don't really want it to be.
It does seem that there are a lot of people who think of themselves as very radical. And think that anybody who does not agree with them 101% is simply not worth bothering with.
I have found the arguements against supporting Immigration really interesting.
I suppose some people will decide that means i am some form of racist.

I don't have a clue what "form" you take, but rather than harping on about how you find the anti-immigration arguments "really interesting", why not let us hear your views on the subject. Ta.

 

[becky p]

I'm not certain about what to think. I think that there are lots of interesting points to look at on both sides.
If immigration was unlimited as some people seem to be suggesting what effect would it have on the UK or the world in general?
I am not sure how anyone could be certain of the answer but some people seem to be very sure!