Weasel Straw strikes again (Pakistani men in Britain see white girls as "easy meat")

[dylans]

;11419584]I work in Egypt researching relations between the majority Muslim and minority Christian communities.

Among Muslims, the term used for the winning, taking or marrying of a Christian girl by a Muslim man is “fat’h”. The term means “a conquest” or “an opening” or “a victory” (for Allah). It is the same term that is used in Islamic discourse for the conquest and subjugation of non-Muslim states by Islamic arms – i.e. the conquest of the ‘non-Muslim’ by Jihad.

Which Muslims? The Muslim Brotherhood? The followers of Al Azhar Mosque? The Intellectual and secular elites of Cairo? The radicals of Islamic Jihad? The fundamentalists of Takfir wal-Hijra? The killers of Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya ?
The writers and intellectuals of the coffee houses who came out in their thousands to condemn the attackers of Naguib Mahfouz and who only last week flocked in their thousands to defend Coptic Christians on their Christmas day?
Which Islam do you wish to quote so authoritatively? There is no Islam. There are many.

I also used to live in Egypt. I lived in Cairo for several years and some of the wisest most tolerant people I had ever met were Egyptian Muslims. your assumption that you can define from a billion people a single and homogeneous culture called "Islam" is ill conceived and racist. There is no Islam, there are many. By claiming to define Islam as a single entity on the terms you do is to surrender the argument to the Salafist fundamentalists . By doing so you are betraying the many many brave Egyptians who risk their lives daily for defending secular values and a multi faith Egypt.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There is the Islam of the Egyptian authorities, which for instance bans all philosophy students from even hypothesising that there is no god.

Dylans, can you show me an imman anywhere who advocates gay rights?

 

[Proper Tidy]

Those are interesting posts, Thomsy.

I think it is important not to fall into the trap of thinking that there is such a thing as 'Islam' beyond what is practised by Muslims. The book they use as the basis for their moral and political views is not a straightforward one, and it contains a hell of a lot of ammunition for those who, for instance, wish to subjugate women. And it contains a hell of a lot of stuff that encourages the idea that those who are not Muslims are in some way inferior. There is a lot to detest in Islam, and I don't see any wishy-washy CofE-style equivalent being practised in many places. I don't see any 'gay Muslim' movements, for instance, or 'women-Imman' movements.

As I said earlier, I don't think anyone should feel reticent in coming forward and condemning such belief systems in a robust and direct manner.

http://gaymuslims.org/

http://www.lgf.org.uk/gay-muslims-in-the-uk/

http://www.france24.com/en/20081004...imam-woman-eid-ul-fitr-kabylia-algeria-france

So you also think that the actions of these men can be traced to Islam (even though their victims were muslim as well as non-muslim)? Islam is more repressive than other faiths?

 

[pk]

Because you are.

LOL, whatever. I guess that'll be from when you were posting on the MATB boards then under another name: "watcyn".

"Look at my join date" you fucking liar.

Like I said, you're just dragging up 5-year old irrelevant shite - it makes you look like a complete twat if you need to invoke all that in order to somehow make a point.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Have you read that 'gaymuslims.org' link? It is quite, quite mad, you know.

 

[Proper Tidy]

LOL, whatever. I guess that'll be from when you were posting on the MATB boards then under another name: "watcyn".

"Look at my join date" you fucking liar.

Like I said, you're just dragging up 5-year old irrelevant shite - it makes you look like a complete twat if you need to invoke all that in order to somehow make a point.

Lol. People on here know who I am you dick. I am registered at MATB, if it still exists, under the same name I use on here. I can just spot a fucking loon, is all.

 

[pk]

Have you read that 'gaymuslims.org' link? It is quite, quite mad, you know.

LOL, course he hasn't - or he'd see for himself the hate-filled fundie shite that it was!

LOL, utterly owned!! Self pwnage!!

 

[pk]

Lol. People on here know who I am you dick. I am registered at MATB, if it still exists, under the same name I use on here. I can just spot a fucking loon, is all.

Yeah course. So you weren't bullshitting at all when you called me a stalker and then denied trying to drag up a 5 year old spat.

Owned again you lying cock.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Have you read that 'gaymuslims.org' link? It is quite, quite mad, you know.

No, I just posted up the first couple of links of the 36,100 that turned up when I googled 'gay muslims'.

Any chance of you explaining your position at some point?

 

[Proper Tidy]

Yeah course. So you weren't bullshitting at all when you called me a stalker and then denied trying to drag up a 5 year old spat.

Owned again you lying cock.

I know you are a freaky stalker because everybody told me 'pk is a fucking freaky stalker' when I joined here. Amazing, I know.

 

[pk]

No, I just posted up the first couple of links of the 36,100 that turned up when I googled 'gay muslims'.

Without actually reading any of them.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

No, I just posted up the first couple of links of the 36,100 that turned up when I googled 'gay muslims'.

Well at least you're honest.

 

[pk]

I know you are a freaky stalker because everybody told me 'pk is a fucking freaky stalker' when I joined here. Amazing, I know.

"everybody told me"



How old are you? 12?

Anyway - you're fucking the thread up - and I will not allow that to happen.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Well at least you're honest.

Why are you so keen to avoid backing up your comments LBJ?

That occasional Bangladeshi might point to an alternative view, though, namely that they are not going for fellow Pakistanis, rather than avoiding fellow Muslims. That they have indeed identified an 'other' to whom they grant less than full human status, but that this other is not just non-Muslims.

Those are interesting posts, Thomsy.

I think it is important not to fall into the trap of thinking that there is such a thing as 'Islam' beyond what is practised by Muslims. The book they use as the basis for their moral and political views is not a straightforward one, and it contains a hell of a lot of ammunition for those who, for instance, wish to subjugate women. And it contains a hell of a lot of stuff that encourages the idea that those who are not Muslims are in some way inferior. There is a lot to detest in Islam, and I don't see any wishy-washy CofE-style equivalent being practised in many places. I don't see any 'gay Muslim' movements, for instance, or 'women-Imman' movements.

As I said earlier, I don't think anyone should feel reticent in coming forward and condemning such belief systems in a robust and direct manner.

So you also think that the actions of these men can be traced to Islam (even though their victims were muslim as well as non-muslim)? Islam is more repressive than other faiths?

 

[dylans]

There is the Islam of the Egyptian authorities, which for instance bans all philosophy students from even hypothesising that there is no god.

Dylans, can you show me an imman anywhere who advocates gay rights?

The Egyptian authorities are not concerned with Islam they are concerned with maintaining the dictatorship of Muḥammad Ḥusnī Sayyid Mubārak.

As far as gay rights is concerned. I don't know about Imams but I can show you Muslims who fight for a secular democracy.
http://www.bmsd.org.uk/pages.asp?id=2

 

[Proper Tidy]

And Muslim gay rights orgs, female immans...

 

[dylans]

I don't see any 'gay Muslim' movements, for instance, or 'women-Imman' movements.

This is simply not true. In Iran for example there some heroic people organising gay rights movements.

(sorry I can't find part one but the following doc is well worth watching

 

[Proper Tidy]

Anyway - you're fucking the thread up - and I will not allow that to happen.

lol

 

[pk]

their victims were muslim as well as non-muslim

This I do not accept. Apart from the overwhelmingly obvious fact that the victims were not Pakistani muslims - not one of them, there is no evidence to suggest any of the victims were muslim.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The Egyptian authorities are not concerned with Islam they are concerned with maintaining the dictatorship of Muḥammad Ḥusnī Sayyid Mubārak.

This isn't true. For family law – marriage, inheritance, child custody, etc – there is Sharia law for Muslims, Christian law for Christians, no law for atheists – there is no such thing as an atheist in Egypt legally speaking, hence the prohibition on even discussing it at university. The very idea that there is no god is illegal in Egypt.

And there is no secular law above these. That's it – for matters to do with the family, choose your religious court, or more to the point, as Thomsy alluded to, as often as not have that court chosen for you.

 

[pk]

lol

Proof that the Head of Oslo rape robbery and vice was lying please.

And read your links before posting them won't you?

 

[pk]

That Channel 4 documentary - radio discussion from YouTube...



Full notes in the description section.

 

[Thomsy]

But we're not talking about Egypt, are we? What is it with people, do they think muslims are made on an industrial estate to factory specifications? Like Borg?

That is a nothing argument. A cop out.

The issue under discussion was the influence of Islamic culture, not the character of individuals. If you think there is no such thing as 'Islam', that there is nothing we can meaningfully intend by the term 'Islam', then you have abandoned any possibility of learning.

Would you say it was wrong to criticise Nazism becaue 'there are all kinds of Nazis'?

 

[dylans]

This isn't true. For family law – marriage, inheritance, child custody, etc – there is Sharia law for Muslims, Christian law for Christians, no law for atheists – there is no such thing as an atheist in Egypt legally speaking, hence the prohibition on even discussing it at university. The very idea that there is no god is illegal in Egypt.

And there is no secular law above these. That's it – for matters to do with the family, choose your religious court, or more to the point, as Thomsy alluded to, as often as not have that court chosen for you.

Because Islamic law was offered as a sop to the fundamentalists. The result is that Egyptian law contradicts itself.

Egyptian law also contradicts itself. Although it borrows heavily from the French legal system and other secular sources, article 2 of the constitution states that Islamic jurisprudence is the principal source of legislation.

The clause was a fudge used by secularists to appease religious conservatives at a time when Egypt was secularising rapidly, but it is slowly returning to haunt the establishment. This inherent contradiction within Egypt's secular laws, as well as ambiguous laws against "defaming religion" and "sowing sedition", allows reactionary government officials, judges and activists to punish, or at the very least obstruct, people who act in what they perceive to be an "un-Islamic" manner.

http://www.oasiscenter.eu/it/node/6226

 

[dylans]

That is a nothing argument. A cop out.

The issue under discussion was the influence of Islamic culture, not the character of individuals. If you think there is no such thing as 'Islam', that there is nothing we can meaningfully intend by the term 'Islam', then you have abandoned any possibility of learning.

Would you say it was wrong to criticise Nazism becaue 'there are all kinds of Nazis'?

And I asked you to define this "Islamic Culture" you seem so keen to claim exists. I asked you which one? The term "Islam" has about as much meaning as the term "Christianity"

 

[Thomsy]

They targeted muslim kids as well as non-muslim kids, so any 'conversion' motivation is clearly bollocks. They're nonces.

Please read more carefully. The issue at discussion was whether Islamic supremacist attitudes to the non-Muslims find expression in the sexual relations between Muslims and non-Muslims.

If you don't realize that they are, I suggest you read a text or two on Islamic law or on the experiences of minorities under Islam.

 

[Thomsy]

And I asked you to define this "Islamic Culture" you seem so keen to claim exists. I asked you which one?

Give us a chance! I've only just come back on line.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Give us a chance! I've only just come back on line.

Too late. dylans has pronounced you a racist. No amount of wriggling will get you off the hook I'm afraid.

 

[dylans]

Too late. dylans has pronounced you a racist. No amount of wriggling will get you off the hook I'm afraid.

no I haven't. I think his assumption that there is a single definable entity called Islam is racist yes. Worse, I think it is effectively surrendering to the political discourse of Salafist fundamentalism. Bin Laden claims there is one "Islamic culture" too

 

[pk]

Too late. dylans has pronounced you a racist. No amount of wriggling will get you off the hook I'm afraid.

LOL no he hasn't - in fact dylans contributions have been comparably sane compared to some...