goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
OK then Thelmasy. You have one more chance. Best be good.
Weasel Straw strikes again (Pakistani men in Britain see white girls as "easy meat")
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Ranbay
The same rules apply
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Hmmm. That's not exactly what he said. He said something quite uncontroversial, in fact, that when you say 'Islam', you must mean something by it.
All Muslims take the Koran to be the word of god as revealed to his prophet Mohammad. That's a minimal condition to being a Muslim. I'd look at this in a Wittgensteinian way, considering the term to be a 'family' of related concepts. In that sense, it certainly has a meaning.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
I see Islam as a culturally diverse phenomenon that can only be seen as a process. One that is fluid and in constant flux. As such it is a broad stream that is open to competing political ideological trends and agendas. A battle ground if you like. A battle for the spiritual souls of a quarter of the Earths population. No one culture can claim a monopoly of truth within its walls. There is a vast difference between a Muslim from Bihar and a Muslim from Indonesia, a Muslim from Cambodia and a Muslim from East Africa or Jordan or Turkey or Iran or Syria or France (add a myriad of different cultures to this list) Additionally there are class differences, urban rural differences, regional and ethnic differences etc. And the point is, in their worlds they are all valid.
The rise of Salafist (wahabist) ideology presents a challenge to this. It claims a monopoly on truth and claims to speak for the entire Muslim world. As such it is fighting for that very monopoly. By claiming there is a single Islam (and by defining it on Salafist terms) we are handing victory in this battle to the fundamentalists.
I have travelled a lot in the Muslim world. I have been to Iran and Pakistan and the middle East and I lived in Cairo in the mid 90s. I remember very well the sense of cultural siege felt by many of my friends in Cairo, and I remember the resentment that the fundamentalist discourse was gaining ground. These guys are on the front line of the fight for the heart and soul of Islam and across the world they are paying with their lives for standing up against intolerance and fundamentalism. I think it is our duty to at least not make their task harder. That begins by refusing to accept the discourse of the fundamentalists that there is one single valid Islamic culture.
The rise of Salafist (wahabist) ideology presents a challenge to this. It claims a monopoly on truth and claims to speak for the entire Muslim world. As such it is fighting for that very monopoly. By claiming there is a single Islam (and by defining it on Salafist terms) we are handing victory in this battle to the fundamentalists.
I have travelled a lot in the Muslim world. I have been to Iran and Pakistan and the middle East and I lived in Cairo in the mid 90s. I remember very well the sense of cultural siege felt by many of my friends in Cairo, and I remember the resentment that the fundamentalist discourse was gaining ground. These guys are on the front line of the fight for the heart and soul of Islam and across the world they are paying with their lives for standing up against intolerance and fundamentalism. I think it is our duty to at least not make their task harder. That begins by refusing to accept the discourse of the fundamentalists that there is one single valid Islamic culture.
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
Waves to Bob Cunt and Dumbo. Commies indeed. Classic.
As I said, I think this argument is a cop out.
Are you seriously denying that there is any real sense in which Muslims think of themselves as 'one'?
Does the variety of something demonstrate that it does not actually exist?
Yes, of course there are nice Muslims. And there are many people of liberal temper who are Muslims. That absolutely is not the issue. However, and contrary to your suggestion, those liberal-minded individuals seldom stand up to the militants – not least because the militants can quote the Quran and Hadith and then, likely, put a bullet in their heads or drive them into hiding. The secularists themselves are the first to admit this.
You cannot simply ignore a reading of the Quran and the Hadith. The fundamentals of Islam provide a very tough, practical, specific, core which it is excruciatingly difficult for liberals to elide. The liberals can always be outflanked by the literalist, takfiri right-wing – and then face denunciation as apostate.
Did you see what happened in Pakistan this week, when someone dared question the Islamic blasphemy laws?
When, as I on occasion have, I see a crowd stoning a church and justifying their actions by quotes of the holy texts, I am minded to judge them by their own expressed motivations. When I visit the site of a pogrom and hear the radicals justify the action by Holy Writ, I find it a little galling that apologists in the West tell me: ‘This is not really Islam’.
I went to a gay marriage ceremony part of which was held in a mosque once. Weird I admit, but true, I have no idea what sect of Islam it was under though.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
I think the ummah is a myth as evidenced by the amount of sectarian violence in the "Muslim world".
No it just gives the lie to your claim to be able to define Islamic culture" Your claim elicits the reply Which one?
It has nothing to do with "nice Muslims" It has everything to do with competing discourse about what it means to be a Muslim. You are living in Cairo right? Are you aware of the thousands of Muslims who surrounded Coptic Churches on the 7th of January in defence of and solidarity with their Christian brothers and sisters? I was living in Cairo when Niquib mahfouz was stabbed and I remember the wave of solidarity that was shown to him and against the rise of fundamentalism. These people need our support. Yes they are cowed and intimidated but dismissing their bravery only gives power to the Salafists.
I have written extensively on this in the thread in world politics. Take a look.
I didn't say "this is not really Islam" I said It is the not the only one. I see Egyptian Muslims standing with their Coptic neighbours and I see a competing discourse which deserves our support.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
In Southern Pakistan, Sindh province. I met ladyboys who were widely respected. (perhaps respected is the wrong word- tolerated perhaps is better) They work as wedding singers (and prostitutes)
They are known as Khwaja Saraa or by the more derogatory term hijra, The third sex.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Try reading The Islamist for a view on comparative Islam and the fact that Mulims criticise so called Muslim states. either that or get out more, perhaps join the same pool league as PK?
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
pk
drink flounce rinse repeat
derail the thread... must derail the thread - can't talk about that stuff... do anything but talk about this stuff... run away... don't look at it... don't confront it... attack attack!
You're terrified of being critical of the fastest growing religion in the country, in the entire continent, further. And you accuse me of odd behaviour.
Give yourself a pat on the arse.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I accept a lot (most) of what you say, dylans.
However (genuine question), would you say that those Muslims who do not see Islam as an all-encompassing political theory that tells you in a prescriptive manner how to run a state, those who would push for a secular state, do so because their version of Islam tells them that is what to do, or because their views on all and everything are not dictated solely by what they read in the Koran?
However (genuine question), would you say that those Muslims who do not see Islam as an all-encompassing political theory that tells you in a prescriptive manner how to run a state, those who would push for a secular state, do so because their version of Islam tells them that is what to do, or because their views on all and everything are not dictated solely by what they read in the Koran?
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Done my bit on here PK. Like to think that in a discussion that I contributed and when push comes shove made my point. Couldn't quite squeeze out of you about this 'war' that you said was being raged ideologically and georgraphically and most importantly what role you were playing in it ( but hugs n kisses to you for even thinking about it when others would rather just walk away) Also max respect for you and you cleaning up with the Muslim Pool team ( our women are safer now but I am not sure about theirs -just jokin bro)
Lovin it.
Safe
The world is slighty safer for your contribution
pk
drink flounce rinse repeat
There are plenty of less savoury examples to illustrate your point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi
But in no way wiser for yours.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
most muslims are just normal people, have loads of diffrent views on all sorts of things. Why don't you try and relate to them as such?
working class mulsims working with and living in an area with working class catholics, agnostics, Jews , aethiests spend more time discussing Coronation street, X Factor and footbal, than what the Koran says.
pk
drink flounce rinse repeat
Off you fuck then. Didn't think it would be too long. It's not as if you can talk about this stuff is it??
Maybe calm down a bit and come back when you've something on-topic to say.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
But this is the point that fundamentalists would make. And is the point that Thomsy was making. That they are in fact less Muslim than the true dedicated believer.
However, if you have a Muslim cleric who thinks this, who defends secularism, then you are on to something else – a version of Islam that does not see the religion as an all-encompassing system.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Good to see the big guns being rolled out here.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
as i said read The Islamist. It made me think a bit more about this issue.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
pk
drink flounce rinse repeat
I'm taking lessons from nobody who hasn't the balls to debate the topic to begin with. What are you, a cleric?
pk
drink flounce rinse repeat
attack ... attack ... don't talk about this stuff!!
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
A pea-shooter would suffice against you, I think.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
What you said doesn't come as a surprise to me. As I said, it was a point that Thomsy was making, that those that wish to push a stricter, more thoroughgoing interpretation of the Koran do not find strong opposition from those who do not follow the Koran as closely as they do.
I think it is misguided to look for solutions to the rise of fundamentalism by looking in the Koran, just as it is a mistake to look for solutions to the rise of fundamentalism in Christianity by reference to the bible. You have to look elsewhere.
pk
drink flounce rinse repeat
offski you fuck then.
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