Weasel Straw strikes again (Pakistani men in Britain see white girls as "easy meat")

[pk]

Possibly. Or if they're culturally conditioned that women shouldn't leave the house unless fully robed then encounter women that don't follow those codes.

Ummm, so these immodest children are asking for trouble? Not women. Children.

But then they're not the only male rapists on the block, are they?

No, but they do appear to be the only ones that prey only on non-muslim children.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Thats what I'm getting at and it is significant that the specific political interpration of their religion tied up in this conflict is popular with this demographic.

Clearly some are going to turn towards radical Islamism, even superficially if not actively. For the same reason that some Catholic youth in NI are going to turn, at least superficially if not actively, towards hardline Irish republicanism, or some black youth in America turn towards black nationalism. Isolation, identity, inequality. It's a consequence not the cause.

I've been to valleys there was only like 20 minutes of daylight.

I do suspect Bridgend was a major factor in the suicide epidemic.

 

[Proper Tidy]

I don't think the levels of unemployment and drug abuse/dealing have been seen before, which is of course a major factor.

We haven't seen young muslim men radicalised to the point of strapping suicide belts before.

So nothing to do with Islamic views then?

 

[pk]

An attempt at a diplomatic response, yet very telling about how you think.

1. I am not Muslim.

I never once inferred that you were.

2. Two of the victims identify the same way as I do.

What, being 12 years old?

3. You have no clue how I dress...and by implication your statement suggests that these young girls were targeted because they dress less than 'modestly'. Good going.

Sorry but I'm sure we have met several times and attended the same parties on at least ten occasions.
I do have a pretty good idea of what you look like otherwise I would not have commented thus.

Feel free to call me a sexist if it makes you feel like you're achieving anything though.

 

[pk]

So nothing to do with Islamic views then?

I think it has much to do with the notion that islamic law is the only law, that infidel law in the UK, being that we are engaged at war with Pakistani border towns, should be dismissed.

These rapists are going to try to use every excuse in the book to excuse what they did, but do you not accept that the violent rhetoric towards women in general, specifically non-believers, is going to play a major role in the mindset of these child rapists?
Especially given the fact that there has been zero evidence offered yet that their victims were occasionally muslim children.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

I think they just target vulnerable girls. And they're more likely to find non-muslim girls in shopping malls without their parents than muslim ones.

Agree.

I think the notion that infidel girls = whores goes largely unchallenged, by certain people, and such a notion is in fact reinforced by extremists. Sexual jihad.

Hardly a great leap of imagination to suggest that certain people of Pakistani heritage might be angry enough to see children as fair targets in a war.

You are a total tool. Despite no evidence for this at all, and the fact that the people in the OP were never seen at the mosque you come out with this. You're an idiot.

I don't recall any stories of UK white men grooming young muslim girls or chinese or any other cultural group for vicious gang rape.

Loads of evidence of white men going out to Thailand to abuse women.

Apart from all those muslim leaders who spoke up to applaud Mr Straw's comments that is...

So on one hand muslim leaders are condemning this behaviour on the other they are calling for sexual jihad. Which is it?

Still not a single mention of anything practical that can be done by the way.

 

[N_igma]

Can i get a ticket for that?

The tickets cost a bomb I wouldn't waste my money on it.

 

[CyberRose]

What some of us are trying to say is that they are all problems that need to be dealt with, and the way to deal with them is to attack the attitude that women or children can be used as property regardless of what sort of person holds that attitude. Otherwise you simply create a situation where it is assumed that it's only a problem when "they" (Catholics, Muslims, the middle class, aliens) do it, and not when "we" do.

While I don't disagree with what you say, you don't find solutions to specific problems by looking at the issue in a generic way. The reasons why peadophile Catholic priests abuse children is different to the reason some Muslim men abuse young girls (right there you see a difference - young children (mainly boys) as opposed to young girls). Both are real problems that happen and both need to be addressed.

There are clear parallels between both issues which is basically the discouragement of sex - completely against human nature - which is where the problem comes from. However, there are clear differences between the two meaning the solutions will also be different - and you will only identify those solutions by addressing the issues separately.

The paedophile Catholic priest abuses young boys because they are required to remain celibate. The urge is too difficult to overcome for some and they find their outlet with vulnerable children they come into contact in their position of trust. A fairly obvious solution there is to end the celibacy rules (altho I'm sure it's not unheard of, but how many times do vicars appear in the papers for organised mass child abuse scandals?)

But allowing priests to marry is hardly going to address the issue of the sexual exploitation of young girls by Muslim men is it? The culture of Muslim communities in the UK discourages sex before marriage, but more than that, in most cases the marriage will be arranged (meaning you could end up someone you're not even sexually attracted to). Another issue is the fetishisation of virgins (not that all culture don't, but it appears more apparant in Muslim communities - for example, vigins as a reward in Heaven, the rest of us non-Muslims just have to make do with meeting up with our loved ones!). You must be a virgin when you marry, and by 'you', I mean the woman. So, like some Catholic priests, some Muslim men cannot overcome this sexual frustration and it manifests itself by targeting non-Muslim (so I do object to the notion they are targeting just white girls), young girls (they don't appear to be turned on by young boys/girls like Gary Glitter but want what they can pretend is a virgin - that's just my opinion, might not be true).

The factors above are quite specific (but obviously not confined) to Muslim communities as other cultures won't have the same attitudes towards sex and therefore the frustrations won't be the same. However, I don't think it's possible to tell how widespread this is (define "widespread" for a start!) and obviously this is not as bigger issue as "white"/"traditional" paedophiles but I just don't think they are the same issue due to the reasons and motivations of the offenders.

Pretty much everyone on U75 acknowledges the problem in the Catholic Church (evident by the sheer number of threads on the issue and the comments, which on this thread would be considered racist by some) yet when it comes to a specific problem within the Muslim community many on U75 seems to have a huge problem recognising the issue and instead have to list every other culture's sex offending problems or simply accuse those commenting as being racist.

Every culture/community has problems, we should feel free to criticise, debate and address those problems without fear of being labelled racist, and sadly, the left live in absolute fear of being called racist (or they just enjoy calling other people racist, one or the other!)

 

[pk]

Despite no evidence for this at all, and the fact that the people in the OP were never seen at the mosque you come out with this. You're an idiot.

Plenty of evidence posted on this thread already. You choose not to see it, that's your problem.

Loads of evidence of white men going out to Thailand to abuse women.

Loads of evidence Chinese men make up the majority of Thai brothel punters.
We've done this already, it's irrelevant.
The only reason white pedophiles go there is because of the permissive laws.
Lending weight to my assertion that a relaxed or don't ask don't tell attitude toward the sexual proclivities of men from certain cultures fosters abuse.

So one one hand muslim leaders are condemning this behaviour on the other they are calling for sexual jihad. Which is it?

Yeah because the leaders praising straw are the same who bang on about infidels. You're the tool pal.

Still not a single mention of anything practical that can be done by the way.

Go on then - start the ball rolling.

 

[Proper Tidy]

I think it has much to do with the notion that islamic law is the only law, that infidel law in the UK, being that we are engaged at war with Pakistani border towns, should be dismissed.

These rapists are going to try to use every excuse in the book to excuse what they did, but do you not accept that the violent rhetoric towards women in general, specifically non-believers, is going to play a major role in the mindset of these child rapists?
Especially given the fact that there has been zero evidence offered yet that their victims were occasionally muslim children.

Why do you think these young men are more exposed to Anjem Choudury & co than they are to the TV, to music, to Facebook, to mainstream British culture? Where do you think we live, in some gender equal utopia?

By your own admission this is about poverty, class, alienation, imperialism - why do you insist it is also to do with 'Islamic values'? If 'Islamic values' were the cause then why aren't we reading stories about Catholic or Jewish gangs? Do you think 'Catholic values' or 'Jewish values' are any more progressive? That their religious tracts aren't also communalist, misogynistic, patriarchal, full of venom for outsiders and non-believers? You're entire argument is contradiction and speculation.

 

[CyberRose]

Loads of evidence of white men going out to Thailand to abuse women.

You see I just don't understand this logic - are you excusing the sexual exploitation of young girls by some Muslim men just because some white people go to Thailand to sexually abuse children? Or, are you acknowledging that both are a problem, no matter how widespread or not, that need addressing?

 

[ericjarvis]

By that logic wouldn't they have stiff competition from all the White, Black, Sikh, Hindu grooming gangs hoovering up the slutty 12year olds?

In South London they wouldn't get a look in after the more vicious neighborhood gangs had done their thing. For fucks sake this sort of thing isn't only happening in Blackburn, and if those of you determined to pretend it's only a problem amongst a small group of Pakistanis in the North West got your heads out of the bloody sand you might learn something.

http://www.northwichguardian.co.uk/news/8771104.Businessman__45__denies__grooming__girl__15/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/gang-rape-is-it-a-race-issue-1711381.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/sep/14/sex-trafficking-gang-young-virgins

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/boys-convicted-over-mass-rape-by-street-gang-1340839.html

I could go find plenty more. There's no shortage of it. This country is not short of men who treat women as worthless, and they aren't limited to any particular community. It's a serious problem that won't be sorted out by fixating on one single aspect of it.

 

[Proper Tidy]

While I don't disagree with what you say, you don't find solutions to specific problems by looking at the issue in a generic way. The reasons why peadophile Catholic priests abuse children is different to the reason some Muslim men abuse young girls (right there you see a difference - young children (mainly boys) as opposed to young girls). Both are real problems that happen and both need to be addressed.

There are clear parallels between both issues which is basically the discouragement of sex - completely against human nature - which is where the problem comes from. However, there are clear differences between the two meaning the solutions will also be different - and you will only identify those solutions by addressing the issues separately.

The paedophile Catholic priest abuses young boys because they are required to remain celibate. The urge is too difficult to overcome for some and they find their outlet with vulnerable children they come into contact in their position of trust. A fairly obvious solution there is to end the celibacy rules (altho I'm sure it's not unheard of, but how many times do vicars appear in the papers for organised mass child abuse scandals?)

But allowing priests to marry is hardly going to address the issue of the sexual exploitation of young girls by Muslim men is it? The culture of Muslim communities in the UK discourages sex before marriage, but more than that, in most cases the marriage will be arranged (meaning you could end up someone you're not even sexually attracted to). Another issue is the fetishisation of virgins (not that all culture don't, but it appears more apparant in Muslim communities - for example, vigins as a reward in Heaven, the rest of us non-Muslims just have to make do with meeting up with our loved ones!). You must be a virgin when you marry, and by 'you', I mean the woman. So, like some Catholic priests, some Muslim men cannot overcome this sexual frustration and it manifests itself by targeting non-Muslim (so I do object to the notion they are targeting just white girls), young girls (they don't appear to be turned on by young boys/girls like Gary Glitter but want what they can pretend is a virgin - that's just my opinion, might not be true).

The factors above are quite specific (but obviously not confined) to Muslim communities as other cultures won't have the same attitudes towards sex and therefore the frustrations won't be the same. However, I don't think it's possible to tell how widespread this is (define "widespread" for a start!) and obviously this is not as bigger issue as "white"/"traditional" paedophiles but I just don't think they are the same issue due to the reasons and motivations of the offenders.

Pretty much everyone on U75 acknowledges the problem in the Catholic Church (evident by the sheer number of threads on the issue and the comments, which on this thread would be considered racist by some) yet when it comes to a specific problem within the Muslim community many on U75 seems to have a huge problem recognising the issue and instead have to list every other culture's sex offending problems or simply accuse those commenting as being racist.

Every culture/community has problems, we should feel free to criticise, debate and address those problems without fear of being labelled racist, and sadly, the left live in absolute fear of being called racist (or they just enjoy calling other people racist, one or the other!)

The main difference between the two is that in the former, it was ordained members of the church abusing kids, which was subsequently covered up by the church at the highest level. Whereas the latter is young lads who think they are gangsters and are, in all likelihood, about as muslim as I am christian. So not similar at all.

 

[CyberRose]

The main difference between the two is that in the former, it was ordained members of the church abusing kids, which was subsequently covered up by the church at the highest level. Whereas the latter is young lads who think they are gangsters and are, in all likelihood, about as muslim as I am christian. So not similar at all.

Whether they 'act' Muslim is not the point. The point is the culture they have grown up in (which IS Muslim)

 

[pk]

Why do you think these young men are more exposed to Anjem Choudury & co than they are to the TV, to music, to Facebook, to mainstream British culture? Where do you think we live, in some gender equal utopia?

By your own admission this is about poverty, class, alienation, imperialism - why do you insist it is also to do with 'Islamic values'? If 'Islamic values' were the cause then why aren't we reading stories about Catholic or Jewish gangs? Do you think 'Catholic values' or 'Jewish values' are any more progressive? That their religious tracts aren't also communalist, misogynistic, patriarchal, full of venom for outsiders and non-believers? You're entire argument is contradiction and speculation.

I am speculating for the sake or argument, as are others on the opposite side of the argument.

But I do think that these jihadi romeos (a term you can Google for a far less UK-centric perspective on the issue) are a real problem, and that to deny it is doing a disservice to the children that fall victim.

I think these wannabe gangsters with their BMWs and their bling feel a sense of empowerment that comes with the Choudary "fear us, we iz muslim gangstas innit".

Same way hardcore rap music reinforces the gang mentality, and indeed the sexism.

 

[pk]

You see I just don't understand this logic - are you excusing the sexual exploitation of young girls by some Muslim men just because some white people go to Thailand to sexually abuse children? Or, are you acknowledging that both are a problem, no matter how widespread or not, that need addressing?

He's (One_Stop_Shop) just repeating old irrelevant comments that have already been discussed. Not sure why.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Whether they 'act' Muslim is not the point. The point is the culture they have grown up in (which IS Muslim)

No it isn't. For a start, what the fuck is 'the muslim culture'? I can safely say their experience of growing up is a lot closer to a non-muslim british youth than it is to a Pakistani in Pakistan. Neither you, nor pk, can provide one single tangible link between Islam and the actions of these secular British youths. Because there isn't one. These kids are taught in state comps, not fucking madrases.

 

[Proper Tidy]

I am speculating for the sake or argument, as are others on the opposite side of the argument.

But I do think that these jihadi romeos (a term you can Google for a far less UK-centric perspective on the issue) are a real problem, and that to deny it is doing a disservice to the children that fall victim.

I think these wannabe gangsters with their BMWs and their bling feel a sense of empowerment that comes with the Choudary "fear us, we iz muslim gangstas innit".

Same way hardcore rap music reinforces the gang mentality, and indeed the sexism.

So how is that different from "fear us, we iz white/black/Chinese/Maori gangstas innit"? How does it tie in with religion?

 

[rover07]

You can't accept for a second that there is anything shady going on with regard to non-muslim children and predatory muslim pedophiles egged on by radical beliefs that reduce women to the level of animals.

So now you think there are gangs of Islamic paedophiles roaming the streets!

 

[pk]

No it isn't. For a start, what the fuck is 'the muslim culture'? I can safely say their experience of growing up is a lot closer to a non-muslim british youth than it is to a Pakistani in Pakistan. Neither you, nor pk, can provide one single tangible link between Islam and the actions of these secular British youths. Because there isn't one. These kids are taught in state comps, not fucking madrases.

How can you "safely say" anything about these lads? You know nothing about their upbringing. I can see from news reports that they both had arranged marriages for starters, which renders your point about "their experience of growing up is a lot closer to a non-muslim british youth than it is to a Pakistani in Pakistan" completely untrue.

 

[IMR]

However I realise that the intention may not be to find any solutions. It may be more a case of posters wanting to prove their virtue by showing how viciously they would like to treat people they can safely label as evil, thereby assuming they will be counted as virtuous rather than shown to be somewhat bloodthirsty and determined to find fault as far away from themselves as possible.

Eric, you can come out of your shell a bit more. Name the evil ones who dare disagree with you.

 

[pk]

So now you think there are gangs of Islamic paedophiles roaming the streets!

Keep your hand over your face, you may as well, you're clearly blind to any of the issues that have been discussed here.

You clearly don't think there are often racist and sexist attitudes towards UK white women from young impressionable muslim men - keep your eyes shut.

 

[IMR]

PK: If was just or mainly about Islam you'd expect similar things to be happening in places like Newham and Tower Hamlets with Bangladeshi men preying on white girls. But afaik there's no sign that's happening.

 

[CyberRose]

No it isn't. For a start, what the fuck is 'the muslim culture'? I can safely say their experience of growing up is a lot closer to a non-muslim british youth than it is to a Pakistani in Pakistan. Neither you, nor pk, can provide one single tangible link between Islam and the actions of these secular British youths. Because there isn't one. These kids are taught in state comps, not fucking madrases.

55% of British Pakistanis are married to their first cousin, how exactly does that experience closely mirror that of non-Muslims?

I'm not attempting to link these sex offenders to their religion (I'm sure they are about as Muslim as I am Christian, as you point out) but to the culture they were brought up in - call it British-Pakistani or Muslim or Asian or whatever you want - but it is a specific culture...

 

[Proper Tidy]

How can you "safely say" anything about these lads? You know nothing about their upbringing. I can see from news reports that they both had arranged marriages for starters, which renders your point about "their experience of growing up is a lot closer to a non-muslim british youth than it is to a Pakistani in Pakistan" completely untrue.

No it doesn't. Do you think they live in caves isolated from everybody else? They live in the UK, they are exposed to 'British culture' every single day. This is blindingly obvious. The dominant cultural influences on them will be the same as with the rest of us. Does the bling and the BMW's and the recreational drug use come from their 'Islamic values' ffs?

 

[pk]

So how is that different from "fear us, we iz white/black/Chinese/Maori gangstas innit"? How does it tie in with religion?

White black chinese etc. don't have specific religious doctrines to back up their sick attitudes towards women. Nor are honour killings a protected aspect of their belief system.
And ten thousand people marching today in Pakistan to uphold the death penalty for blasphemy are not doing so to protect women or non islamic belief.

 

[ericjarvis]

PK: If was just or mainly about Islam you'd expect similar things to be happening in places like Newham and Tower Hamlets with Bangladeshi men preying on white girls. But afaik there's no sign that's happening.

Actually it is to some extent. It's happening in many parts of London, but on a basis of geographical gangs rather than culturally based gangs. I'd be amazed if there aren't any largely Bengali gangs in East London who have been involved. However it isn't a question of the race of the victims (nor is it in the originally mentioned case, where not all the victims were white).

 

[Proper Tidy]

55% of British Pakistanis are married to their first cousin, how exactly does that experience closely mirror that of non-Muslims?

So? Does that mean they don't read the papers, or go to shops, or watch telly, or listen to the radio, or go to work or school or college? Do they only watch Pakistani telly? Do they go weeks or months without seeing a white face in their 'muslim community'?

I'm not attempting to link these sex offenders to their religion (I'm sure they are about as Muslim as I am Christian, as you point out) but to the culture they were brought up in - call it British-Pakistani or Muslim or Asian or whatever you want - but it is a specific culture...

So, if it was the culture they were 'brought up in', how come it's a recent phenomenon? How come we have gangs of white and black youths in London and Manchester and all over the fucking place who are repeatedly gang-raping vulnerable young women, using rape as a weapon? I heard all these attitudes about women when I was a young lad, that rape was okay, even funny, that women are not as important as men, that it's a man's world, that taking advantage of drunk vulnerable women was a bit of a laugh - and I went to a school with maybe three or four muslims in it. It's everywhere, not just in asian areas.

 

[IMR]

No it doesn't. Do you think they live in caves isolated from everybody else? They live in the UK, they are exposed to 'British culture' every single day. This is blindingly obvious. The dominant cultural influences on them will be the same as with the rest of us. Does the bling and the BMW's and the recreational drug use come from their 'Islamic values' ffs?

That would go against the 'availability' explanation, which has a lot going for it, imo. It depends on cultural differences in the way children are brought up and what they're allowed to do.

You don't need to be told this, but the poorer end of the working class has been hammered over the last three decades. A lot of the old community and family structures have all but been destroyed among white working class people living in what were once industrial towns. This makes children in what's left of those communities more vulnerable. In contrast, British Pakistanis have probably fared better at keeping their extended family structures intact. There's likely to be stricter control over what time girls are allowed out until, and more eyes and ears to watch out for them.

 

[pk]

So, if it was the culture they were 'brought up in', how come it's a recent phenomenon? How come we have gangs of white and black youths in London and Manchester and all over the fucking place who are repeatedly gang-raping vulnerable young women, using rape as a weapon? I heard all these attitudes about women when I was a young lad, that rape was okay, even funny, that women are not as important as men, that it's a man's world, that taking advantage of drunk vulnerable women was a bit of a laugh - and I went to a school with maybe three or four muslims in it. It's everywhere, not just in asian areas.

Fucks sake it IS NOT a recent phenomenon. It's been hushed up for fear of inciting islamophobia.