Weasel Straw strikes again (Pakistani men in Britain see white girls as "easy meat")

[IMR]

Actually it is to some extent. It's happening in many parts of London, but on a basis of geographical gangs rather than culturally based gangs. I'd be amazed if there aren't any largely Bengali gangs in East London who have been involved. However it isn't a question of the race of the victims (nor is it in the originally mentioned case, where not all the victims were white).

That's a reasonable and interesting bit of info, thank you. I don't really want to row with you, especially as we actually knew each other a little bit as teenagers (you may be surprised to know: Andy Martin-Foulden Road-LMC scene.)

 

[pk]

Actually it is to some extent. It's happening in many parts of London, but on a basis of geographical gangs rather than culturally based gangs. I'd be amazed if there aren't any largely Bengali gangs in East London who have been involved. However it isn't a question of the race of the victims (nor is it in the originally mentioned case, where not all the victims were white).

Evidence of Bengali gangs doing same please.

And evidence that the victims were sometimes muslim please.

I don't believe a word .

 

[Proper Tidy]

White black chinese etc. don't have specific religious doctrines to back up their sick attitudes towards women. Nor are honour killings a protected aspect of their belief system.
And ten thousand people marching today in Pakistan to uphold the death penalty for blasphemy are not doing so to protect women or non islamic belief.

What 'specific religious doctrines' are you thinking of?

Honour killings are not limited to muslims. What about similar or equally vile practices committed throughout the world in non-muslim communities? Why is it Islam when it's muslims but it isn't Christianity, or Hinduism, or Judaism, or whatever, when it happens elsewhere?

And again - their lifestyle seems very secular and a lot closer to mainstream British youth culture than to Pakistani culture.

 

[pk]

What 'specific religious doctrines' are you thinking of?

I've listed several, specifically regarding infidel women as "war booty".

Honour killings are not limited to muslims. What about similar or equally vile practices committed throughout the world in non-muslim communities? Why is it Islam when it's muslims but it isn't Christianity, or Hinduism, or Judaism, or whatever, when it happens elsewhere?

It's nowhere near as big a problem, and the communities you mention don't have the same presence here.

And again - their lifestyle seems very secular and a lot closer to mainstream British youth culture than to Pakistani culture.

Apart from the arranged marriages and the long beards and robes worn to court.

 

[Proper Tidy]

That would go against the 'availability' explanation, which has a lot going for it, imo. It depends on cultural differences in the way children are brought up and what they're allowed to do.

You don't need to be told this, but the poorer end of the working class has been hammered over the last three decades. A lot of the old community and family structures have all but been destroyed among white working class people living in what were once industrial towns. This makes children in what's left of those communities more vulnerable. In contrast, British Pakistanis have probably fared better at keeping their extended family structures intact. There's likely to be stricter control over what time girls are allowed out until, and more eyes and ears to watch out for them.

Yeah, I'd agree with this. I was trying to make the point that if there is a specific social problem with regard to British Pakistanis then the operative word here is British not Pakistani. It's a social problem that has been created here, as a result of all sorts of preceding social problems and cultural influences, the majority of which will be secular, Western cultural influences, hence the imitation of pop-culture gangsters.

 

[pk]

Yeah, I'd agree with this. I was trying to make the point that if there is a specific social problem with regard to British Pakistanis then the operative word here is British not Pakistani. It's a social problem that has been created here, as a result of all sorts of preceding social problems and cultural influences, the majority of which will be secular, Western cultural influences, hence the imitation of pop-culture gangsters.

With respect, this is simply not true.

It is not a problem unique to the UK. Identical problems are found in every single place where large muslim communities are established within non-muslim ones.

Scandanavia, India, Canada, Australia - all have similar stories of such grooming. Google it!

 

[CyberRose]

So? Does that mean they don't read the papers, or go to shops, or watch telly, or listen to the radio, or go to work or school or college? Do they only watch Pakistani telly? Do they go weeks or months without seeing a white face in their 'muslim community'?

Don't understand your point. You're telling us all that Pakistanis are brought up the same as the rest of the country, but with 55% having an arranged marriage with their cousin (which means that's not even the total amount of arranged marriages) that to me is quite an important difference. I also think it's one of the causes why some Muslim men commit the offences that are the topic of this thread.

What's your view of arranged marriages, as an aside?

So, if it was the culture they were 'brought up in', how come it's a recent phenomenon? How come we have gangs of white and black youths in London and Manchester and all over the fucking place who are repeatedly gang-raping vulnerable young women, using rape as a weapon? I heard all these attitudes about women when I was a young lad, that rape was okay, even funny, that women are not as important as men, that it's a man's world, that taking advantage of drunk vulnerable women was a bit of a laugh - and I went to a school with maybe three or four muslims in it. It's everywhere, not just in asian areas.

Maybe I'm from a better upbringing that you but I certainly don't know anyone who thinks rape is ok!

But again, you're bringing up problems associated with other cultures into this debate - I doubt anyone in the Catholic paedo-priest threads brought any other community's problems up to compare against, they just got on with valid criticism without having to resort to that - altho I know you're not, it makes you appear to be doing a Keith Vaz and pretending this isn't an issue when clearly it is.

That's not to say it's also not a problem in other communities/cultures because it is, but, you need to look at the individual communities/cultures to identify the specific causes because otherwise you don't find the solutions.

Let me give you an example...domestic violence...this problem affects all communities no matter what the culture. And women's charities say it occurs in similar proportions in all ethnic groups (meaning no ethic group experiences it more that others). But do you think the causes of domestic violence in Muslim communities are the same causes as in non-Muslim communities? No. In Non-Muslim communities alcohol plays a huge part, but alcohol is not drunk to the same extent by the Muslim community (it at all). The domestic violence there is likely a result of arranged marriages (with the concept of women as property or simply that you got matched with the wrong woman/man to make the relationship work) - altho many causes will be shared but you can see that there are specific factors that affect specific communities.

 

[Proper Tidy]

I've listed several, specifically regarding infidel women as "war booty".

Can you find any in the Bible or Tanakh or fucking Loaded?

It's nowhere near as big a problem, and the communities you mention don't have the same presence here.

Isn't it? Don't they? Do you intend to back up your blind assertion?

Apart from the arranged marriages and the long beards and robes worn to court.

My two married brothers both got married in chapels, both christened all their kids. Wow, they must be bible-bashers. Oh, actually, both are secular and probably atheist. Ah.

And a great many defendants find god, I wonder why.

 

[Proper Tidy]

With respect, this is simply not true.

It is not a problem unique to the UK. Identical problems are found in every single place where large muslim communities are established within non-muslim ones.

Scandanavia, India, Canada, Australia - all have similar stories of such grooming. Google it!

I'm not sure how much of these claims are realistic and how much are hysteria, but even accepting it for the sake of argument, do you suppose that maybe some of the same social forces in the UK which have served to alienate young muslims might also be at play in 'Scandanavia, India, Canada, Australia'?

 

[CyberRose]

My two married brothers both got married in chapels, both christened all their kids. Wow, they must be bible-bashers. Oh, actually, both are secular and probably atheist. Ah.

You appear to have difficulty distinguishing between culture and religion...

 

[pk]

I'm not sure how much of these claims are realistic and how much are hysteria, but even accepting it for the sake of argument, do you suppose that maybe some of the same social forces in the UK which have served to alienate young muslims might also be at play in 'Scandanavia, India, Canada, Australia'?

Does that mean they are merely products of their environment? Should we pander more to the hyper-sensitive demands and obligations laid out in islamic law?

You still appear to think this is a new problem - it very clearly isn't - it's been going on for decades.

On-street grooming is a well-established, lucrative and successful method of coercion of young people that has been around for more than a decade, Gill Gibbons from the Coalition for the Removal of Pimping (Crop), said.

"I don't think it's particularly new I'm afraid," she said, "I think it's been going on for many, many years; it's just that what's new is that there is an increased awareness that it is going on.

"We've been running for 14 years and it's been going on for all the 14 years that we've been operating."

Part of the problem of discussing the practice, she said, was that some organisations were accused of racism when many of the alleged perpetrators of such child sexual exploitation turned out to be of Asian descent.

"When we first started up at Crop and coming across families who were victims of Asian gangs, we started talking about it but people then thought we were aligned with the British National Party and, actually, it was causing us problems, so we sort of just shut up about it.

"It was the families who wanted to talk about it and we're here to support them, we were just speaking the words of the families and their experiences; not necessarily being racist but just saying it how it is.

"For political reasons it has been suppressed because people don't want to be seen to be racist."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ight-growing-list-of-abuse-cases-2178848.html

 

[hipipol]

Everything Mr Straw said is unfortunately true.

It needs to be confronted, no matter how uncomfortable, and it needs to be addressed.

Unless you consider vulnerable young women as acceptable collateral damage in a politically correct war.

This has been going on for years, the security services knew about it as early as the 1990s and it is accepted as part of life for working girls in cities such as Derby, Bradford, Leicester, Blackburn, they know to protect themselves as best they can and work with cops to minimise risks.

There ARE groups of Pakistani men who consider troubled white British teenage girls, and boys, as fair game for abuse, at pre-organised sex parties where alcohol and cocaine are pretty much forced upon the victims, some as young as 13.

Rather than shooting the messenger, no matter how obnoxious and how his track record has blood all over it, might it not be prudent to at least look at the evidence?

Street grooming is happening. It's bold of Mr Straw to go public with his comments in this way, but it's about time something was said.

Entirely true I'm afraid

I have known Asian lads from Bradford who were horrified by their Dads suggestion they only fuck white girls, even well off Sikhs who got that advice from their parents here in the south

It is not unusual for this advice to be handed on

Dont blame Straw, its true, its very, very true

 

[Proper Tidy]

You appear to have difficulty distinguishing between culture and religion...

No, I think you do, hence why I used the example I did. My brothers followed a traditional route into marriage and family not because of any religious conviction but because it was, well, traditional. Do you see?

 

[The39thStep]

Can i get a ticket for that?

No doubt PK will put you on the guest list next to some impressionable poster that he is grooming.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Does that mean they are merely products of their environment?

Everything is a product of its environment ffs. What else do you think produces it?

 

[hipipol]

I'm not sure how much of these claims are realistic and how much are hysteria, but even accepting it for the sake of argument, do you suppose that maybe some of the same social forces in the UK which have served to alienate young muslims might also be at play in 'Scandanavia, India, Canada, Australia'?

It may not suit your "noble savage" condescension but its an established pattern which I have seen first hand

PK is ENTIRELY correct on this

 

[CyberRose]

No, I think you do, hence why I used the example I did. My brothers followed a traditional route into marriage and family not because of any religious conviction but because it was, well, traditional. Do you see?

Traditional to who?

 

[hipipol]

No, I think you do, hence why I used the example I did. My brothers followed a traditional route into marriage and family not because of any religious conviction but because it was, well, traditional. Do you see?

So, did yer Dad ever tell them to fuck immigrants?

You know, before they got married to a "decent" English Rose?

 

[hipipol]

Everything is a product of its environment ffs. What else do you think produces it?

And thats it?

Cant blame the Toffs for shitting on you then eh?

 

[pk]

Can you find any in the Bible or Tanakh or fucking Loaded?

I can't see any observed text that is adhered to today by followers of those religions that suggests the rape of muslim women is justifiable in war.

Might be able to find some on a right wing US gun nut forum, but I ain't looking.

Isn't it? Don't they? Do you intend to back up your blind assertion?

I'm not the one making as many blind assertions as you.

Still waiting for a scrap of evidence that Bengali gangs are involved in grooming children for rape from you, and also still waiting for evidence to back up YOUR blind assertion that the child victims of this case were sometimes muslim.

My two married brothers both got married in chapels, both christened all their kids. Wow, they must be bible-bashers. Oh, actually, both are secular and probably atheist. Ah.

Completely irrelevant to the topic, but I wish them both a happy marriage regardless.

And a great many defendants find god, I wonder why.

It's the type of "god" they find that interests me. And the need to kill people who speak ill of this "god".

 

[Proper Tidy]

I'm not the one making as many blind assertions as you.

Lol.

 

[pk]

No doubt PK will put you on the guest list next to some impressionable poster that he is grooming.

And a round of applause for that, really intelligent stuff. Shame you don't have a view yourself, or are too afraid to tell us what that might be...

 

[pk]

Lol.

You can LOL all you like - I'll still be here waiting for you to prove the assertions you have made, after asking you repeatedly. I won't hold my breath.

Here's a reminder:

- Still waiting for a scrap of evidence that Bengali gangs are involved in grooming children for rape from you.

- Still waiting for evidence to back up YOUR blind assertion that the child victims of this case were sometimes muslim.

I've already debunked your myth that this is somehow a new phenomenon.

 

[Proper Tidy]

It's the type of "god" they find that interests me. And the need to kill people who speak ill of this "god".

Lol again. You now claiming that these nonces are also slaying infidels on the streets of the north west? Do you see Islam as more barbaric than other religions?

 

[CyberRose]

You can LOL all you like - I'll still be here waiting for you to prove the assertions you have made, after asking you repeatedly. I won't hold my breath.

Don't hold your breath, PT denies there's such a thing as British-Pakistani culture so I doubt you'll get anything credible out of him (what type of person denies a peoples' culture btw...)

 

[Pickman's model]

i think it's game set and match to pk

 

[Pickman's model]

Lol again. You now claiming that these nonces are also slaying infidels on the streets of the north west? Do you see Islam as more barbaric than other religions?

than all other religions or than some select competitors?

 

[Proper Tidy]

You can LOL all you like - I'll still be here waiting for you to prove the assertions you have made, after asking you repeatedly. I won't hold my breath.

Here's a reminder:

- Still waiting for a scrap of evidence that Bengali gangs are involved in grooming children for rape from you.

- Still waiting for evidence to back up YOUR blind assertion that the child victims of this case were sometimes muslim.

You appear to have me confused for somebody else. You are just a rabid little bigot btw, there's my assertion for the night.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Don't hold your breath, PT denies there's such a thing as British-Pakistani culture so I doubt you'll get anything credible out of him (what type of person denies a peoples' culture btw...)

No, it was 'muslim culture' and the fact you consider them interchangeable is telling.

 

[pk]

Lol again. You now claiming that these nonces are also slaying infidels on the streets of the north west?

No I'm not. Are you being intentionally thick or is this coming naturally?

I'm saying tens of thousands of Pakistanis marched today in Karachi to ensure the death penalty for blasphemy stays law.

http://www.rferl.org/content/pakistani_rally_blasphemy_law/2271406.html

Do you see Islam as more barbaric than other religions?

Absolutely 100 percent yes. I do. Do you disagree?