War propaganda, 'Realists' and neocons, and the denigration of the war sceptics

[RD2003]

They're poisoned people who were sent as negotiators. The Russian government currently sees attempts at diplomacy as a sign of weakness. Unless and until that changes, any attempts at diplomacy will be miserable failures.

It's not like this is a case of the Russian government having an off day, either. They've been salami-slicing their Ukrainian neighbours' territory since at least 2014. This is a consistent pattern of behaviour.

Was it ever proved that negotiators were poisoned. Even the Ukrainians don't seem to have pursued that line.

The idea of diplomacy is to offer incentives for Russia to change that line, however that may be done.

Yes, it has been going on since 2014. That's when Russia warned that it will not tolerate Ukraine joining NATO. The Minsk agreement wasn't pursued vigorously enough.

 

[RD2003]

And this option is worse than Russia gobbling up half of Ukraine (which is what "de-escalation will mean) because... ?

Fewer deaths maybe? It isn't a game being played here.

 

[RD2003]

yes, i think putin's broadly abandoned it

Along with everybody else, including those who should be urging a return to diplomacy.

 

[NoXion]

Was it ever proved that negotiators were poisoned. Even the Ukrainians don't seem to have pursued that line.

The idea of diplomacy is to offer incentives for Russia to change that line, however that may be done.

Yes, it has been going on since 2014. That's when Russia warned that it will not tolerate Ukraine joining NATO. The Minsk agreement wasn't pursued vigourously enough.

Ukraine is sovereign country, not a province of the Russian federation, and should be free to join whatever alliances they like, without having having their Russian neighbours invading them for it. I don't like NATO either, but I'll be damned if that means backhanded support for the rape and murder of the Ukrainian people.

The Russian government can issue all the threats they want. That doesn't mean that anyone else should allow their behaviour to be modified by such bullying belligerence.

 

[RD2003]

It's pointless to keep going back to what should be instead of what is.

A lot of things should happen that never will.

 

[two sheds]

It's pointless to keep going back to what should be instead of what is.

errrm except when you do it?

The Minsk agreement wasn't pursued vigorously enough.

 

[RD2003]

errrm except when you do it?

The diference being that Minsk would have been a messy compromise. Forcing Russia to change its attitude to Ukraine was a pipe dream.

 

[maomao]

The Russian government can issue all the threats they want. That doesn't mean that anyone else should allow their behaviour to be modified by such bullying belligerence.

You're being very brave with a lot of other people's lives; I take it you don't have children. Any de-escalation would be preferable to a nuclear war and one with sanctions in place would allow western Europe to put more defenses in place a lot faster than Russia could replace their forces. It's not a playground.

 

[platinumsage]

The diference being that Minsk would have been a messy compromise.

Like when Neville Chamberlain agreed to the cession of the Sudetenland perhaps.

 

[NoXion]

The diference being that Minsk would have been a messy compromise. Forcing Russia to change its attitude to Ukraine was a pipe dream.

The invasion happened in large part because of said attitude. The Russian government doesn't think of Ukraine as a neighbouring country. They think of the place as a wayward appendage of the greater Russian whole. You don't compromise with rogue provinces. You crush them and bring them into line.

 

[RD2003]

Like when Neville Chamberlain agreed to the cession of the Sudetenland perhaps.

Yes, all situations are identical no matter the place or time.

 

[RD2003]

The invasion happened in large part because of said attitude. The Russian government doesn't think of Ukraine as a neighbouring country. They think of the place as a wayward appendage of the greater Russian whole. You don't compromise with rogue provinces. You crush them and bring them into line.

And this attitude is going to be bombed out of them?

 

[NoXion]

You're being very brave with a lot of other people's lives; I take it you don't have children. Any de-escalation would be preferable to a nuclear war and one with sanctions in place would allow western Europe to put more defenses in place a lot faster than Russia could replace their forces. It's not a playground.

Blame Ukraine. They're the ones who insist on defending their homes instead of laying down their arms.

 

[NoXion]

And this attitude is going to be bombed out of them?

Worked for Vietnam against the US, didn't it? They kept fighting until the Yanks fucked off.

Not just the US either. The French too, IIRC.

 

[maomao]

Blame Ukraine. They're the ones who insist on defending their homes instead of laying down their arms.

Not sure Ukraine is going to be the greatest place to live after ww3 either and it's this kind of thinking that will get us all killed. Yes it's too late to change the west's mistakes of the last thirty years but that doesn't mean the only option is doubling down on total war either.

 

[RD2003]

dp

 

[RD2003]

Blame Ukraine. They're the ones who insist on defending their homes instead of laying down their arms.

And meanwhile their homes are being blasted to pieces, with the promise of many more to come. And all due to events over which they've never had any control.

It would hardly be the first time that those who want to fight had to have their representatives dragged to the negotiating table. And it won't be the last.

 

[Rimbaud]

Have the rebels and revolutionaries on here really lost sight of themselves so much that they have seriously started to deny the role of the arms industry in war?

There's a case to be made that the arms industry would benefit from less NATO, because without NATO there would be more defense spending for each individual European country. E.g. if the Baltics didn't have the security guarantees from being in NATO, they'd be tooling up a lot more than they are now.

Expansion of NATO in itself does not necessarily mean greater military spending. And you have yet to provide any justification for your claim that the arms industry was the motor force behind the expansion of NATO in the 90s.

 

[NoXion]

And meanwhile their homes are being blasted to pieces, with the promise of many more to come. And all due to events over which they've never had any control.

Plenty of Ukrainians have fled the fighting as refugees, but obviously not in great enough numbers to give the Russian forces an easy time. The ones remaining in the fight could desert, or surrender, or simply do their worst at fighting. The fact Ukrainians on the ground are not doing any of that in significant numbers should tell us that something is going on that makes them think that continuing to fight hard is the better option.

You've criticised people in this thread for being armchair fighters. Yet when it comes to the people actually doing the fighting in Ukraine, you see fit to pontificate that they're acting at the behest of arms manufacturers.

 

[Pickman's model]

dp

that's your best post on the thread

 

[RD2003]

Plenty of Ukrainians have fled the fighting as refugees, but obviously not in great enough numbers to give the Russian forces an easy time. The ones remaining in the fight could desert, or surrender, or simply do their worst at fighting. The fact Ukrainians on the ground are not doing any of that in significant numbers should tell us that something is going on that makes them think that continuing to fight hard is the better option.

You've criticised people in this thread for being armchair fighters. Yet when it comes to the people actually doing the fighting in Ukraine, you see fit to pontificate that they're acting at the behest of arms manufacturers.

Those doing the fighting on the ground, while understandably wanting to repel the invaders, are ultimately the victims of events which are out of their hands. Just as everywhere else war erupts.

 

[RD2003]

that's your best post on the thread

Would I do better if I matched your 5000 posts a day? With that volume at least one or two are bound to be ok.

 

[RD2003]

There's a case to be made that the arms industry would benefit from less NATO, because without NATO there would be more defense spending for each individual European country. E.g. if the Baltics didn't have the security guarantees from being in NATO, they'd be tooling up a lot more than they are now.

Expansion of NATO in itself does not necessarily mean greater military spending. And you have yet to provide any justification for your claim that the arms industry was the motor force behind the expansion of NATO in the 90s.

Maybe.

And whether it was the primary motor force or not, it hasn't done at all badly out of it.

 

[kebabking]

 

[RD2003]

Worked for Vietnam against the US, didn't it? They kept fighting until the Yanks fucked off.

Not just the US either. The French too, IIRC.

Nobody was threatening nuclear retaliation in Vietnam.

 

[RD2003]

View attachment 320433

It isn't, but glad you think it would be ok if it was.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Fewer deaths maybe? It isn't a game being played here.

That is not a given at all - there is a very strong argument the ultimately the level and death and destruction and suffering will be far greater both in Ukraine and elsewhere if the west deserts the people doing the actual fighting. The Ukrainians are certainly not in the mood to surrender and are desperate for all the help they can get. Please feel free to explain to them how you know better and that they should give into Putin's murderous imperialism and how having their country being wiped out and being deported from their own homes to the far flung reaches of Russia is their best choice.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Nobody was threatening nuclear retaliation in Vietnam.

If Putin pushes the button he’s finished. So seems unlikely given he appears to place his own prospects above everybody else’s.

 

[NoXion]

Nobody was threatening nuclear retaliation in Vietnam.

I thought that Putin was supposed to be a canny fucker, and not some dribbling megalomaniac?

 

[rubbershoes]

Forcing Russia to change its attitude to Ukraine was a pipe dream.

Unlike forcing Ukraine to change its attitude to Nato, I presume.