War propaganda, 'Realists' and neocons, and the denigration of the war sceptics

[maomao]

If only we could just all get along peacefully without any need to defend anything

What's wrong with that as an aim? The west may not be culpable for Russia's war crimes but it certainly bears some responsibility for ensuring the toothlessness of the UN and the acceptability of wars of aggression.

 

[RD2003]

What's wrong with that as an aim? The west may not be culpable for Russia's war crimes but it certainly bears some responsibility for ensuring the toothlessness of the UN and the acceptability of wars of aggression.

Millions of jobs are dependent on the arms industry, remember, not to mention fortunes to be made by some of our betters.

 

[Smangus]

Proof positive that people are still, seven weeks on, losing their heads.

Smug, high horsery done very badly is proof positive of a lack of intellectual rigor and poor analytical ability. Not to mention dogmatic thinking.

 

[Pickman's model]

Millions of jobs are dependent on the arms industry, remember, not to mention fortunes to be made by some of our betters.

woosh went the question as it zoomed over rd2003's miserabilist head

 

[RD2003]

Smug, high horsery done very badly is proof positive of a lack of intellectual rigor and poor analytical ability. Not to mention dogmatic thinking.

Yes, it's probabaly about as useful as bleating,'What, so we (as if there is a we) should just give Putin what he wants?' every time somebody points out that continuing the war means continuing slaughter.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes, it's probabaly about as useful as bleating,'What, so we (as if there is a we) should just give Putin what he wants?' every time somebody points out that continuing the war means continuing slaughter.

the deaths won't end the day the fighting does, nor the next year, nor five years down the line, not even after fifteen or twenty years: an average of seventeen american veterans kill themselves every day https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/11/11/unclaimed-soldier/

 

[RD2003]

the deaths won't end the day the fighting does, nor the next year, nor five years down the line, not even after fifteen or twenty years

I know. But maybe the focus will shift onto other avoidable deaths elsewhere for a bit.

 

[Pickman's model]

I know. But maybe the focus will shift onto other avoidable deaths elsewhere for a bit.

yeh more picturesque deaths no doubt, the great and the good hailed on their way back to the mud while the deaths of those who fought go unremarked. 530 american vietnam veterans die each day

 

[RD2003]

yeh more picturesque deaths no doubt, the great and the good hailed on their way back to the mud

The arms tycoons will still do well though, so that's something.

 

[Pickman's model]

The arms tycoons will still do well though, so that's something.

i wouldn't be surprised if you had investments in them, the amount of time you spend posting about them

 

[RD2003]

i wouldn't be surprised if you had investments in them, the amount of time you spend posting about them

Wish I had, because noboby would fucking care. Some on here might even hail me as one of the good guys.

 

[maomao]

530 american vietnam veterans die each day

Is this not an age thing? The rapists of My Lai dying in their 80s?

 

[Pickman's model]

Is this not an age thing? The rapists of My Lai dying in their 80s?

The average age of the combat soldier in Vietnam famously 19. The first American combat soldiers were deployed to South Vietnam in 1965, with the my lai massacre occurring several years later. So if the average holds true for those members of the Americal division death in their 80s awaits them rather than being their present

 

[platinumsage]

The average age of the combat soldier in Vietnam famously 19. The first American combat soldiers were deployed to South Vietnam in 1965, with the my lai massacre occurring several years later. So if the average holds true for those members of the Americal division death in their 80s awaits them rather than being their present

Famously 19, but actually 22.

 

[maomao]

The average age of the combat soldier in Vietnam famously 19. The first American combat soldiers were deployed to South Vietnam in 1965, with the my lai massacre occurring several years later. So if the average holds true for those members of the Americal division death in their 80s awaits them rather than being their present

In their 70s then smarty pants. It's not like they're all hanging themselves and throwing themselves off tall buildings is it?

 

[Pickman's model]

In their 70s then smarty pants. It's not like they're all hanging themselves and throwing themselves off tall buildings is it?

i've not said they were. altho more vietnam vets have topped themselves than died in vietnam, and an average of 17 american vets kill themselves every day (which you'd have seen if you read the thread instead of jumping in to try and score a cheap point)

 

[NoXion]

Yes, it's probabaly about as useful as bleating,'What, so we (as if there is a we) should just give Putin what he wants?' every time somebody points out that continuing the war means continuing slaughter.

The Russian government can withdraw their forces from Ukraine at anytime they want. Until that blessed day, they're solely responsible for continuing this atrocity.

 

[Pickman's model]

The Russian government can withdraw their forces from Ukraine at anytime they want. Until that blessed day, they're solely responsible for continuing this atrocity.

i wouldn't trust them not to fuck it up

 

[RD2003]

The Russian government can withdraw their forces from Ukraine at anytime they want. Until that blessed day, they're solely responsible for continuing this atrocity.

Yes they can, but they won't.

And are you seriously suggesting that the pouring into Ukraine of of heavy weapons instead of seeking de-escalation isn't prolonging the war and adding to the mounting death toll?

 

[maomao]

i've not said they were. altho more vietnam vets have topped themselves than died in vietnam, and an average of 17 american vets kill themselves every day (which you'd have seen if you read the thread instead of jumping in to try and score a cheap point)

Crikey, calm down.

 

[NoXion]

Yes they can, but they won't.

And that's entirely on them. The Russian government being the aggressor in this, remember?

And are you seriously suggesting that the pouring into Ukraine of of heavy weapons instead of seeking de-escalation isn't prolonging the war and adding to the mounting death toll?

The Russian government have made it patently obvious that they're not interested in de-escalation. Aside from total capitulation by Ukraine, of course.

 

[Pickman's model]

Crikey, calm down.

i am entirely calm.

 

[RD2003]

And that's entirely on them. The Russian government being the aggressor in this, remember?


The Russian government have made it patently obvious that they're not interested in de-escalation. Aside from total capitulation by Ukraine, of course.

You seem to be missing the fact that I haven't said that it isn't on them.

There would be more chance of them de-escalating, slim as it may be, if diplomacy was pursued over immaturely regarding all this as a battle between good and evil and upping the ante all the time.

 

[Pickman's model]

You seem to be missing the fact that I haven't said that it isn't on them.

There would be more chance of them de-escalating, slim as it may be, if diplomacy was pursued over immaturely regarding all this as a battle between good and evil and upping the ante all the time.

you missed the weeks of diplomacy before the invasion then.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Yes they can, but they won't.

And are you seriously suggesting that the pouring into Ukraine of of heavy weapons instead of seeking de-escalation isn't prolonging the war and adding to the mounting death toll?

"de-escalation" actually means "letting Russia win". Its a facile argument, which could very well mean greater death and destruction further down the line - not least from what happens in the occupied areas when the inevitable insurgency kicks off .

 

[RD2003]

you missed the weeks of diplomacy before the invasion then.

No. But it was abandoned by the bigger players, wasn't it? Since then the death toll continues to mount, and there's still no end in sight.

 

[RD2003]

"de-escalation" actually means "letting Russia win". Its a facile argument, which could very well mean greater death and destruction further down the line - not least from what happens in the occupied areas when the inevitable insurgency kicks off .

It's impossble for Rusia to win outright. And it's impossible for Ukraine to win outright.

It might be possible for Ukraine to be armed enough to force the Russians back, but the problem will not go away.

 

[NoXion]

You seem to be missing the fact that I haven't said that it isn't on them.

There would be more chance of them de-escalating, slim as it may be, if diplomacy was pursued over immaturely regarding all this as a battle between good and evil and upping the ante all the time.

They're poisoned people who were sent as negotiators. The Russian government currently sees attempts at diplomacy as a sign of weakness. Unless and until that changes, any attempts at diplomacy will be miserable failures.

It's not like this is a case of the Russian government having an off day, either. They've been salami-slicing their Ukrainian neighbours' territory since at least 2014. This is a consistent pattern of behaviour.

 

[Pickman's model]

No. But it was abandoned by the bigger players, wasn't it? Since then the death toll continues to mount, and there's still no end in sight.

yes, i think putin's broadly abandoned it

 

[Kaka Tim]

It might be possible for Ukraine to be armed enough to force the Russians back, but the problem will not go away.

And this option is worse than Russia gobbling up half of Ukraine (which is what "de-escalation will mean) because... ?