War propaganda, 'Realists' and neocons, and the denigration of the war sceptics

[RD2003]

That is not a given at all - there is a very strong argument the ultimately the level and death and destruction and suffering will be far greater both in Ukraine and elsewhere if the west deserts the people doing the actual fighting. The Ukrainians are certainly not in the mood to surrender and are desperate for all the help they can get. Please feel free to explain to them how you know better and that they should give into Putin's murderous imperialism and how having their country being wiped out and being deported from their own homes to the far flung reaches of Russia is their best choice.

Any peace deal would obviously have to contain a clause that says deported Ukrainians must be allowed to return, and penalties for resuming the fighting.

 

[maomao]

If Putin pushes the button he’s finished. So seems unlikely given he appears to place his own prospects above everybody else’s.

He has a palatial bunker. If I had a palatial bunker you lot could do one.

 

[RD2003]

Unlike forcing Ukraine to change its attitude to Nato, I presume.

Yes. A neutral Ukraine almost certainly guaranteed no war.

 

[RD2003]

I thought that Putin was supposed to be a canny fucker, and not some dribbling megalomaniac?

I don't know, I haven't really written anything about Putin, have I?

 

[RD2003]

If Putin pushes the button he’s finished. So seems unlikely given he appears to place his own prospects above everybody else’s.

Maybe so, maybe not. But the very fact that everybody is seriously speculating on it shows how dangerous this avoidable war is.

 

[NoXion]

He has a palatial bunker. If I had a palatial bunker you lot could do one.

I don't think that Putin has any more desire to spend the rest of his life eating cold beans than any of the rest of us.

 

[rubbershoes]

Yes. A neutral Ukraine almost certainly guaranteed no war.

I'm not sure the residents of Eastern Ukraine and Crimea would agree with you

 

[maomao]

I don't think that Putin has any more desire to spend the rest of his life eating cold beans than any of the rest of us.

Did Goebells sue for peace when the going got tough? No, he killed his wife and kids alongside himself. What's the better option for Putin? Nuclear war or the Hague? Which one is 'warm beans'?

 

[NoXion]

I don't know, I haven't really written anything about Putin, have I?

If Putin is some kind of fanatic, then the negotiation you're so fond of bringing up is completely irrelevant, because fanatics don't negotiate in good faith.

If he's not a fanatic, then he will come to the negotiation table when circumstances force his hand.

 

[NoXion]

Did Goebells sue for peace when the going got tough? No, he killed his wife and kids alongside himself. What's the better option for Putin? Nuclear war or the Hague? Which one is 'warm beans'?

Did Goebells sue for peace when the going got tough? No, he killed his wife and kids alongside himself. What's the better option for Putin? Nuclear war or the Hague? Which one is 'warm beans'?

Hitler ordered Germany be destroyed when it became clear that they were losing. I don't think many Germans complied.

 

[Pickman's model]

Would I do better if I matched your 5000 posts a day? With that volume at least one or two are bound to be ok.

you could try that. but being as your 5000 posts a day turns out to be a more pedestrian 33 a day over the past month you're talking hyperbollocks. again. out of your 1425 messages there's probably a line of decent posting in there somewhere. but i for one wouldn't want to dive into the midden that is your post history to seek it out

 

[RD2003]

I'm not sure the residents of Eastern Ukraine and Crimea would agree with you

Why? I thought previous military action took place not throughout eastern Ukraine but in part of the Donbas area, and in Crimea no actual fighting at all.

A neutral Ukraine would have meant that thes war almost certainly would not have happened, and if it had been agreed earlier, probably nothing in those other parts of Ukraine either.

 

[RD2003]

you could try that. but being as your 5000 posts a day turns out to be a more pedestrian 33 a day over the past month you're talking hyperbollocks. again. out of your 1425 messages there's probably a line of decent posting in there somewhere. but i for one wouldn't want to dive into the midden that is your post history to seek it out

Fine. Don't then.

 

[RD2003]

If Putin is some kind of fanatic, then the negotiation you're so fond of bringing up is completely irrelevant, because fanatics don't negotiate in good faith.

If he's not a fanatic, then he will come to the negotiation table when circumstances force his hand.

Yes, but the forcing of his hand should be done through attempts to restart diplomacy instead of constantly raising the stakes. Just in case those who say he's gone mad are right.

 

[maomao]

Hitler ordered Germany be destroyed when it became clear that they were losing. I don't think many Germans complied.

If Hitler had nukes I'm pretty sure he'd have used them.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

If Hitler had nukes I'm pretty sure he'd have used them.

Which is sort of the same thing as giving orders to have Germany destroyed.

 

[maomao]

Which is sort of the same thing as giving orders to have Germany destroyed.

No need for lots of obedient soldiers to carry the orders out though.

 

[bluescreen]

Any peace deal would obviously have to contain a clause that says deported Ukrainians must be allowed to return, and penalties for resuming the fighting.

And that would be enforced how, exactly?

 

[RD2003]

And that would be enforced how, exactly?

Dunno. Neither does anybody else on here. If we did, we'd probably be handsomely paid for our expertise instead of being hapless wankers spending our days posting on the internet about things we are unable to remotely affect.

 

[NoXion]

Dunno. Neither does anybody else on here. If we did, we'd probably be handsomely paid for our expertise instead of being hapless wankers spending our days posting on the internet about things we are unable to remotely affect.

You keep saying shit like this, yet you insist on making posts in this subforum. So why the fuck do you do it? I'm not under any illusions that my words here will change anything. I'm just here to have a discussion.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Any peace deal would obviously have to contain a clause that says deported Ukrainians must be allowed to return, and penalties for resuming the fighting.

enforced by whom? what sort of penalties? sanctions? Why would Russia agree to that if Ukraine has been defeated? (defeated as a result of your favoured approach of stopping western military support) Any why would anyone trust Putin's word on anything? The only way they will agree to anything is by being forced to. Like - fuck off back to the pre war borders, return the people who have been forcibly deported or risk losing Crimea.

 

[RD2003]

enforced by whom? what sort of penalties? sanctions? Why would Russia agree to that if Ukraine has been defeated? (defeated as a result of your favoured approach of stopping western military support) Any why would anyone trust Putin's word on anything? The only way they will agree to anything is by being forced to. Like - fuck off back to the pre war borders, return the people who have been forcibly deported or risk losing Crimea.

By similar methods that other peace agreements have been enforced at various points in history? Or maybe other methods. It's what the big brains would do well to be thrashing out right now instead of stirring up yet more death and destruction. I'm sure some sort of solution could be found if there was a will. It will take recognition of the reality that there can never be a total victory for any side and, as I keep saying, acceptance of the fact that it will be messy (not as messy as death and destruction however.) And even if temporary, it would buy time for longer-term solutions to be found. Who knows, maybe the Putin regime would be deposed internally in the meantime.

 

[Duncan2]

This has been said before I think but do we know how the Ukrainian people want to proceed?Zelensky is on our televisions in Churchillian mode calling for NATO to give him a bigger stick but what he really wants,the only thing it seems to me that would serve his purpose,is direct involvement of NATO,boots on the ground etc .Sooner or later he is going to be disappointed is he not?

 

[Cid]

By similar methods that other peace agreements have been enforced at various points in history? Or maybe other methods. It's what the big brains would do well to be thrashing out right now instead of stirring up yet more death and destruction. I'm sure some sort of solution could be found if there was a will. It will take recognition of the reality that there can never be a total victory for any side and, as I keep saying, acceptance of the fact that it will be messy (not as messy as death and destruction however.) And even if temporary, it would buy time for longer-term solutions to be found. Who knows, maybe the Putin regime would be deposed internally in the meantime.

I really don't get why you keep bringing up these 'big brains'... odd degree of faith there.

 

[RD2003]

I really don't get why you keep bringing up these 'big brains'... odd degree of faith there.

Well I do know our brains are bigger, but we can't get much sorted out on here.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

So maybe we stop escalating the war by ceasing to support Ukraine. Then he has a green light to roll the tanks into Moldova. Or elsewhere. He isn’t making the responses reasonable.
Given he has done chemical attacks on UK soil and everybody laughed, I reckon we call him out on his nuclear threats with the view of regime change.

 

[Duncan2]

regime change-this will go well

 

[RD2003]

regime change-this will go well

Just because the Russian army seems outdated, some of these clowns think they're dealing with fucking Congo or somewhere.

 

[Duncan2]

I am not calling anyone on this thread a clown i just have a gut feeling that the 33 billion dollars worth of munitions on its way to Ukraine courtesy of Biden is certain to make what is already an appalling clusterfuck infinitely worse.

Infinitely worse that is except for the shareholders of Raytheon,Lockheed Martin etc etc

 

[Cid]

Well I do know our brains are bigger, but we can't get much sorted out on here.

But you're using 'them' as an excuse so that you don't have to try and think through how a peace deal might work in practice. By saying that's for the clever types to work out.