Aladdin
Well-Known Member
More than two-thirds of the 15 million coronavirus vaccines shipped within the United States have gone unused, US health officials said.
Crazy that this is happening.
Crazy that this is happening.
Vaccine roll-out: the logistics
- Thread starter teuchter
- Start date
teuchter
je suis teuchter
That would seem to be an argument for a vial to contain 5.2 or 6.2 doses, rather than 6.0.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
More than two-thirds of the 15 million coronavirus vaccines shipped within the United States have gone unused, US health officials said.
Crazy that this is happening.
It's not too clear what "gone unused" means. I wouldn't expect an expiry date this soon, even on a novel biological. Sometimes there are chain-of-custody issues involved with moving things from one intended site to another, though.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Or to just mark the bottle as having 5 doses if that extra ml is just for that reason.
cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
The NHS needs to sort out their bloody bureaucracy for those applying to become vaccinators, why the hell should they need training in things like 'preventing radicalisation', 'equality, diversity and human rights' and such like?
There's loads of reports of people that are more than qualified to do the job, like the dentist in the article linked below, yet are giving up, because of all this bureaucracy, Handcock has said he's on the case, so don't expect anything to change.
My SiL is about to give up on the idea, FFS she's worked for the NHS since university & continues to so despite retiring in 2019 in order to help out during this crisis , she has headed up labs, is well trained & experienced in taking blood samples, jabbing people for covid would be a walk in the park, you don't even have to find a vein.
There's loads of reports of people that are more than qualified to do the job, like the dentist in the article linked below, yet are giving up, because of all this bureaucracy, Handcock has said he's on the case, so don't expect anything to change.
My SiL is about to give up on the idea, FFS she's worked for the NHS since university & continues to so despite retiring in 2019 in order to help out during this crisis , she has headed up labs, is well trained & experienced in taking blood samples, jabbing people for covid would be a walk in the park, you don't even have to find a vein.
Coronavirus: Medics complain of 'bureaucracy' in bid to join Covid vaccine effort
Healthcare workers have criticised the red tape and paperwork needed to become an NHS vaccinator.
www.bbc.co.uk
Supine
Newt Member
Regarding the 5 shots vs 6 in a vial. There are two considerations that need to be made. Firstly the fill weight accuracy of the filling equipment and secondly the assurance that 5 doses will always be available. This also ties in with weights & measures legislation. There may be some left after 5 shots are given but there might not be. The 5 shots must be assured and trust me pharma companies don't want to give any extra if they can help it as it affects batch yield. Its just a process capability issue.
ash
Inittogether
They want to vaccinate as many people a day as possible .... really? I applied to NHS professionals as a vaccinator today (I used to be a nurse years ago but am still on the register due to my educational involvement). On the risk assessment I declared asthma (mild). I was told to come back when Iād had the 2 vaccinations. Surely 1) they should vaccinate the vaccinators 2) if not all at least the ones that come up as a risk in the risk assessment. So they canāt use me to vaccinate the over 80ās until I (in my 50ās) have had the vaccination - you couldnāt make it up
Spandex
A crazy bulbous punchbag of sound
I'm not sure about that article. Seems like dentist bloke is complaining about having to recieve training for the job. If people can't be arsed to spend a few hours doing online modules that are mostly essential for the role, plus a few that are standard for any public sector job, how commited are they? I know they need as many people as possible, but those people need to be trained to do the job.The NHS needs to sort out their bloody bureaucracy for those applying to become vaccinators, why the hell should they need training in things like 'preventing radicalisation', 'equality, diversity and human rights' and such like?
There's loads of reports of people that are more than qualified to do the job, like the dentist in the article linked below, yet are giving up, because of all this bureaucracy, Handcock has said he's on the case, so don't expect anything to change.
My SiL is about to give up on the idea, FFS she's worked for the NHS since university & continues to so despite retiring in 2019 in order to help out during this crisis , she has headed up labs, is well trained & experienced in taking blood samples, jabbing people for covid would be a walk in the park, you don't even have to find a vein.
Coronavirus: Medics complain of 'bureaucracy' in bid to join Covid vaccine effort
Healthcare workers have criticised the red tape and paperwork needed to become an NHS vaccinator.www.bbc.co.uk
Most of the modules listed are things like Recognising and managing anaphylaxis, Vaccine administration and storage or Core knowledge for Covid-19 vaccinators. This isn't unnecessary bureaucracy - this is how to do the job. I fucking hope any vaccinators are told this stuff. Then there's stuff like conflict resolution, fire safety and data management, which they'll need to know about. It's the few modules like equality & diversity and safeguarding that seem to be the ones raising hackles, but if they're going to be working with all comers from the general public, including some of the most vulnerable in society, then why shouldn't they spend some time on this.
Dentist bloke seems to think that him saying he knows how to use a needle and that he's a nice bloke is all anyone needs to know. This isn't a hobby for him to feel good about himself on his days off. This is the backbone of getting out of the Covid crisis. This has to work. The people doing it need to know what they're doing and the people they're doing it for need to know they've been told how to do it.
andysays
Love and solidarity
Covid: Sir Keir Starmer calls for 'round the clock' vaccinations
It's a nice sound bite, but is it realistic, even assuming they can get hold of sufficient vaccine?
It's a nice sound bite, but is it realistic, even assuming they can get hold of sufficient vaccine?
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
I think it sounds good, but I'd put it much, much lower down the list of priority than a decent public health education program about vaccination, community based and led and run vaccine centres (schools, churches, mosques, libraries, etc etc.) with decent local advertising and people door knocking to get people to go, maybe even door-to-door vaccinations, easily accessible places on main roads (pop-up vaccine shops?), a multi-language letter through the letterbox of every home in the country, and even fucking payments for people to get it, plus a few other things as well...
The 2 of us watching the press briefing today commented on some of the questions and answers round the vaccination stuff. Johnson just can't inspire any involvement or sense of connection with the vaccine stuff we thought. He just trots out a line about the NHS and army working hard together, and something about production and limits at the moment. Nothing inspirational, nothing that's likely to engender a sense of excitement or duty to make sure you get yours done or volunteer to help, nothing to try and create a sense of collective purpose or anything like that. It's all just anodyne stuff.
Whitty was slightly better I think, but really, where the fuck is the sense of urgency, the vision, the enthusiasm and importance of this. He's fucking useless and completely insipid (and ditto Starmer and double ditto that weird leader of the LibDems).
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cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
You are posting as if these temp vaccinators are going to be operating on their own, they will not be doing so, they will just be clog in the conveyor belt, spending just a few minutes with each person, whilst they jab them.
People will come into a hub and report to the front desk, that person will need data management training, not the vaccinators who will have nowt to do with any data. How can they cover fire safety in advance of even knowing what venue they will be working at? As for 'conflict resolution', pointless for anyone only seeing someone for a few minutes in order to jab them.
These hubs will be overseen and managed by current full-time NHS professionals, who clearly need all the relevant training, including concerning the vaccine storage, the vaccinators will only be there to jab people, this is why my SiL is so pissed off with it all.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
What's the problem from her point of view - is it the time taken to complete the various training things?
cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
Over lunch today she mentioned so much, that I can't remember it all, right from the very start it's been total chaos in dealing with them, a real up hill struggle, that has worn her down.
Bearing in mind she's worked in NHS labs for decades, headed up labs, retired in 2019, went back to help out in 2020, she's fully trained, but they will not accept her record, and wants her to start from stage 1, wasting hours without pay for it.
She had a telephone interview with someone that was blown away by her experience, but couldn't find a way to 'fast-track' her, because the 'computer says no'.
She told me about a recently retired GP, that has been offered a job to marshal a vaccination hub's car-park.
She's not a happy bunny.
No doubt if the local hospital was overseeing this, it wouldn't be a problem, but that's sadly not the case.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
I'm just wondering, is it really 'hours'?
The thing is, that accommodating lots of people who already have all sorts of different prior partial overqualifications is that I can see that could become a big admin burden for the coordinating organisation who may well be very short staffed.
If it means someone has to spend 2 or 3 hours of their time jumping through some hoops 'unpaid'...well isn't that missing the point of volunteering?
The thing is, that accommodating lots of people who already have all sorts of different prior partial overqualifications is that I can see that could become a big admin burden for the coordinating organisation who may well be very short staffed.
If it means someone has to spend 2 or 3 hours of their time jumping through some hoops 'unpaid'...well isn't that missing the point of volunteering?
Spandex
A crazy bulbous punchbag of sound
If they were on their own I'd hope they'd had more than a few online modules as training.
They'll have access to people's data. As staff they need to know what to do if there's a fire. They'll be dealing with stressed out and occasionally quarrelsome people, it's good they're told how to deal with that.
Used to be, when you start a job you'd be given a pile of paper to read, maybe have to sign something to say you'd read it. Nowadays you get to watch PowerPoint presentations with a few videos and answer some questions on it. Sure, it can be a pain in the arse if you know the subject well. But that's what happens when you get a job. The alternative is some people who don't know stuff or think they know stuff get let loose without knowing what they're doing until they're expected to do it.
This is an important job. I'm surprised people are angry they're expected to do an induction.
The Prevent training can fuck off though.
mx wcfc
Well-Known Member
I'm in agreement with the dentist you mentioned earlier.
This is really fucking urgent. Someone who is a dentist and can showthat should be fast tracked. The danger of people dying of covid is greater than any risk of "wrong" people doing jabs.
When we get to vaccinating kids, yes, volunteers should be checked, but that is 2 years away, and anyway, there is always someone else around to prevent abuse. Fire training and stuff is important, but isn't it just "look, if there is a fire, the emergency exits are there"?
How is the person actually doing the jab getting access to anyone's data? Do I care if the nurse who jabs me knows my name? The nurse who gave me the flu jab a couple of months ago said "hello mx" as I walked in, but he didn't ask me for my bank details.
This needs to be done. If I'm called for the jab, I don't give a fuck whether whoever sticks the needle in is trained in conflict resolution. I just want the vaccination, and, imho, stupid requirements like that are delaying the roll out, and this is evidenced by the number of properly qualified people who are walking away.
Do we have any actual facts/figures about how many people are being trained and recruited either for :
1. Jabbing people?
2. Admin work for the vaccine programme?
I think it's worth having some idea about both of those, before getting too agitated about 'red tape and bureaucracy' <---
at Daily Mail-type terminology! 
>
For every one would-be volunteer or paid vaccine worker who is confrontd by unnecessary obstacles, there might be three or four who are whizxzing through the process and getting going in the next few days.
I don't know, and I suspect those hearing anecdotes/stories from friends-of-friends don't know either
Let's get some actual facts and figures here, I'd recommend.
1. Jabbing people?
2. Admin work for the vaccine programme?
I think it's worth having some idea about both of those, before getting too agitated about 'red tape and bureaucracy' <---
at Daily Mail-type terminology! >For every one would-be volunteer or paid vaccine worker who is confrontd by unnecessary obstacles, there might be three or four who are whizxzing through the process and getting going in the next few days.
I don't know, and I suspect those hearing anecdotes/stories from friends-of-friends don't know either
Let's get some actual facts and figures here, I'd recommend.
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cupid_stunt not saying it's all gone smoothly so far or that rigidly sticking to procedures can't sometimes be more of an obstacle than a help, but given the range of different jobs people are signing up from (including people who haven't necessarily worked in healthcare any time recently) how else are they supposed to make everyone has all the necessary knowledge?
Your SIL worked in & ran a lab for years - did that ever involve direct interaction with patients? Can she assess whether someone's able to consent? Get all the necessary information out of a patient who seems to have know clue about any of their own medical history? Deal with pts who turn up drunk, or waving twenty pages of pseudoscience they printed off the internet, or are really REALLY anxious or start getting abusive?
Some other volunteers will probably be great at that side of things but have less experience of record keeping or infection control / PPE or whatever. Retirees or other returners might not have done first aid training in years!
There's a vaccinator competency assessment tool here(pdf) btw if you fancy some light reading
- it allows people with experience giving vaccinations to sign off on their own self-assessment and there's an option to just tick N/A for anything that's not relevant to that person's role.
Your SIL worked in & ran a lab for years - did that ever involve direct interaction with patients? Can she assess whether someone's able to consent? Get all the necessary information out of a patient who seems to have know clue about any of their own medical history? Deal with pts who turn up drunk, or waving twenty pages of pseudoscience they printed off the internet, or are really REALLY anxious or start getting abusive?
Some other volunteers will probably be great at that side of things but have less experience of record keeping or infection control / PPE or whatever. Retirees or other returners might not have done first aid training in years!
There's a vaccinator competency assessment tool here(pdf) btw if you fancy some light reading
- it allows people with experience giving vaccinations to sign off on their own self-assessment and there's an option to just tick N/A for anything that's not relevant to that person's role.
Aladdin
Well-Known Member
Is there some reason why the test centres cant also become vaccination centres ?
Swab or Jab? (Oh dear..I am singing that to Shake and Vac)
No..but seriously. The staff working in testing centres are usually trained up medics and nurses....and could just as easily give a vaccine surely?
Swab or Jab? (Oh dear..I am singing that to Shake and Vac)
No..but seriously. The staff working in testing centres are usually trained up medics and nurses....and could just as easily give a vaccine surely?
Lot of potential for infecting the most vulnerable people when they turn up to be vaccinated, that way.
Aladdin
Well-Known Member
Possibly but it would be a covid secure environment. As it is drive in testing centres are deemed very safe.
Could they have 2 corridors? Like in hospitals at the moment? By corridors I mean routes ...and dedicated areas for each group.
I just think there are lots of medical staff spending their days swabbing when inevitably there will be a time when the density of numbers requesting tests will be too much. Already at that stage here. And it might be better to redeploy testers to get the vaccination schedule on track.
We are in a far worse position here mind you. With only 40000 doses coming in a week and delays with rolling it all out.
One of my school dsys friends is a vaccinator but also has had to work in occ health and contact tracing over the past 10 months. Staff are being deployed wherever they are short staffed. I can see a situation here where people will no longer be tested. It was announced today that if you have symptoms then you more than likely have covid and that there was a huge backlog of people waiting for tests. They're not contact tracing anymore either. It's just gone that bad. So getting the vaccine out has to be the biggest priority and of course getting it into the country faster would help. Brexit has impacted that a bit. But mostly the government was just not on the ball buying vaccines.
I'm at the stage where I would happily give the vaccine to myself and have my epipen at the ready just in case.
cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
cupid_stunt not saying it's all gone smoothly so far or that rigidly sticking to procedures can't sometimes be more of an obstacle than a help, but given the range of different jobs people are signing up from (including people who haven't necessarily worked in healthcare any time recently) how else are they supposed to make everyone has all the necessary knowledge?
Your SIL worked in & ran a lab for years - did that ever involve direct interaction with patients? Can she assess whether someone's able to consent? Get all the necessary information out of a patient who seems to have know clue about any of their own medical history? Deal with pts who turn up drunk, or waving twenty pages of pseudoscience they printed off the internet, or are really REALLY anxious or start getting abusive?
Some other volunteers will probably be great at that side of things but have less experience of record keeping or infection control / PPE or whatever. Retirees or other returners might not have done first aid training in years!
There's a vaccinator competency assessment tool here(pdf) btw if you fancy some light reading
Yes, she has interacted with patients when taking blood samples. With regards to consent & paperwork about medical history, like with the flu jab, that would be dealt with by 'front desk' staff, as would most of the rest you list, before the 'patient' is sent for the actual jab, as mx wcfc said above, all she would have is a name, jab & go.
If she's safe enough to be still working in the hospital, she's safe enough to work in a vaccination hub, with just some training on handling the vaccine, and the actual jabbing, which even a trained monkey could do.
There should be a fast track for people like her, which the person that conducted her telephone interview looked for, by there was no way to do it.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
If she's already employed by the NHS or related organisation there is a fast track way, but I thnk at the moment all that mandatory training is in place, much of it for good reason, some of it less so. Hopefully there will be some streamlining of it as things go on.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Lack of people is in no way delaying the roll-out currently.
I have sympathies with the frustration, but it does have to be balanced with some process of checking people's suitability, giving them some training, etc. It also has to be realized that in terms of time saving, actually getting the applicant to do a few hours training is probably more efficient than getting someone to check up on their suitability. It's pushing the recruitment and checking process back onto the individual rather than the organisation doing the recruitment, and in some ways is actually quicker. I do think there's sometimes an element of ego and individualism about people when they apply for these things, they want someone to chase up their proof and background, when really they just need to do a few easy online modules the same as everyone else.
Regards personal details etc, for example in some places it might be a case of just checking the name, jabbing and going (although even then you'd check their DOB and allergies, maybe their address, so it is personal info you'd have access to). But some places giving vaccinations might involve visiting homes, or vaccinating vulnerable people, and in the long term it'll be easier if everyone that's approved to give jabs can do all of that, rather than have a load of people at different levels and able to only give vaccinations in certain locations and to certain people.
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teuchter
je suis teuchter
An office manager once told me that the worst job they had to do each year was organising the office Christmas dinner. It was an apparently simple task (find a restaurant and book a table for X people) but it became incredibly complex because everyone came back with special requirements (dietary and others) and also many people responded with partial answers on preferences, or responded late, or changed their mind.
Each individual request was not in itself unreasonable or even that complicated, and everyone could justify late decisions on account of their being busy with work, even though probably they actually only needed to give it 5 minutes of their attention. But the consequence of all this for the person organising it was hours of chasing people and trying to work something out that satisfied everyone.
I can imagine there might be something like that here - the way to reduce the admin burden on the people organising it is to have a kind of lowest-common-denominator set of requirements. You give these to every applicant, and you know that if they satisfy these requirements, they can do the job. The alternative is that someone has to sit down and examine some kind of dentistry qualification to check that it actually includes all the stuff that is needed. And then they have to look at someone else's vetinarian qualification. And someone else's specialist workplace first aid qualification and someone's certificate for work in a medical research lab and so on and so on.
Each individual request was not in itself unreasonable or even that complicated, and everyone could justify late decisions on account of their being busy with work, even though probably they actually only needed to give it 5 minutes of their attention. But the consequence of all this for the person organising it was hours of chasing people and trying to work something out that satisfied everyone.
I can imagine there might be something like that here - the way to reduce the admin burden on the people organising it is to have a kind of lowest-common-denominator set of requirements. You give these to every applicant, and you know that if they satisfy these requirements, they can do the job. The alternative is that someone has to sit down and examine some kind of dentistry qualification to check that it actually includes all the stuff that is needed. And then they have to look at someone else's vetinarian qualification. And someone else's specialist workplace first aid qualification and someone's certificate for work in a medical research lab and so on and so on.
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Spandex
A crazy bulbous punchbag of sound
In Parliament today right-wing shitsack Liam Fox bought up the training modules saying:
"As a qualified but non-practising doctor, I volunteered to help with the scheme and would urge others to do the same. But, can I ask the prime minister why Iāve been required to complete courses on conflict resolution, equality, diversity and human rights, moving and handling loads and preventing radicalisation in order to give a simple Covid jab?
Can I urge him to get the NHS and the Department of Health to drop the bureaucracy, drop the political correctness and do all they can to actually get the vaccine programme moving."
To which worldbeating shitsack Johnson replied that he has been āassured by the health secretary that all such obstacles, all such pointless pettifoggery has been removedā.
I haven't seen an updated list of the training modules for vaccinators, but Hancock is on the case to save us from the bureaucracy of vaccinators being trained in moving and handling the elderly and disabled they might deal with, the pettifoggery of knowing how to deal with upset and angry people and - I think this was the dealbreaker - the political correctness of equality and diversity training.
The sort of people that think that equality and diversity training is political correctness are the sort of people who need to skip the 20 minute online module and be forced to attend a 2 week course in person.
"As a qualified but non-practising doctor, I volunteered to help with the scheme and would urge others to do the same. But, can I ask the prime minister why Iāve been required to complete courses on conflict resolution, equality, diversity and human rights, moving and handling loads and preventing radicalisation in order to give a simple Covid jab?
Can I urge him to get the NHS and the Department of Health to drop the bureaucracy, drop the political correctness and do all they can to actually get the vaccine programme moving."
To which worldbeating shitsack Johnson replied that he has been āassured by the health secretary that all such obstacles, all such pointless pettifoggery has been removedā.
I haven't seen an updated list of the training modules for vaccinators, but Hancock is on the case to save us from the bureaucracy of vaccinators being trained in moving and handling the elderly and disabled they might deal with, the pettifoggery of knowing how to deal with upset and angry people and - I think this was the dealbreaker - the political correctness of equality and diversity training.
The sort of people that think that equality and diversity training is political correctness are the sort of people who need to skip the 20 minute online module and be forced to attend a 2 week course in person.
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