US election 2020 thread

[Kaka Tim]

A lot of talk about something else happening on the 20th when Biden is inaugurated.

I don't think there will be anything happening in Washington DC, security will be tight, but I think there could be similar armed putsch attempts at a state level in the South.

There were armed militias rallying outside Kentucky State Capitol yesterday.

Heavily Armed Protesters Gather Outside Kentucky Capitol For Militia Rally

"We will not be intimidated. We will not be bullied," said Gov. Beshear.

www.forbes.com

These guys aren't capable of a putsch of the federal government, but in a state like Kentucky (just for example), they may have sufficient support in the general population as well as (especially) in law enforcement, legislature and local government to be able to forcibly seize control of a state and hold it. Storming the US Capitol does appear to have emboldened some of them:

Extremists intensify calls for violence ahead of Inauguration Day

By Rob Kuznia, Curt Devine, Scott Bronstein and Bob Ortega, CNN (CNN) -- "Trump or war. Today. That simple.""If you don't know how to shoot: You need to learn. NOW.""we will storm the government buildings, ki

www.cbs58.com

Dunno. Would have thought many of them are pretty demoralised. Trump has been forced to disown them and their softer support is keeping its head down. Beyond some desperate die hards, it looks like the wind has very much left yhe militant maga sails

 

[hitmouse]

Apologies for bringing even more twitter into this thread, but noticed some arguments where I'm really genuinely unsure where I stand - one of the MAGA lot has been identified as a union member, there's people saying he should be thrown out of the union, poster as_a_worker is arguing very strongly that allowing people to get kicked out of unions for political activity taken off the job is a bad precedent to set and numerous people are now getting pissed off at him, I really dunno where I stand on the "of course unions should be able to expel people who bring them into disrepute" vs "these powers will always be used against the left and it's a bad idea to encourage them" debate. If anyone wants to dig into the beef, it's split across a bunch of different threads, e.g.:




Curious as to what other people think?

 

[planetgeli]

Apologies for bringing even more twitter into this thread, but noticed some arguments where I'm really genuinely unsure where I stand - one of the MAGA lot has been identified as a union member, there's people saying he should be thrown out of the union, poster as_a_worker is arguing very strongly that allowing people to get kicked out of unions for political activity taken off the job is a bad precedent to set and numerous people are now getting pissed off at him, I really dunno where I stand on the "of course unions should be able to expel people who bring them into disrepute" vs "these powers will always be used against the left and it's a bad idea to encourage them" debate. If anyone wants to dig into the beef, it's split across a bunch of different threads, e.g.:




Curious as to what other people think?

I don't think he's going to be laying any bricks for a while if FBI do have his name BUT storming the Capitol is liberal-democracy's problem and no, he certainly should not be thrown out for that alone.

 

[belboid]

as_a_worker seems a bit of a knob. The fascist wannabe shouldn’t be expelled for taking direct action, but should be for taking action in support of fascism. Crossing a picket line is direct action. So are lots of wanky things.

 

[rekil]

as_a_worker seems a bit of a knob.

Yes he and other eejits equate the capitol antics with the protests to defend collective bargaining in wisconsin in 2011.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

He's probably going to jail for this, the fucking nobhead. But that's business for the state. I don't see that it follows that he should be kicked out of the union, nor prevented from joining again when he comes out of jail, whenever that is. Unions are also for nobheads.

 

[hitmouse]

Yes he and other eejits equate the capitol antics with the protests to defend collective bargaining in wisconsin in 2011.

I mean, I think there's a difference between "I think these things are exactly the same and there's no moral grounds to differentiate between the two" and "I think rightwing AFL-CIO bureaucrats/Democrat politicians/the cops/whoever will treat these things the same way and so we should be wary of stuff like the language of terrorism/anti-terrorism, etc".

Fwiw I think that person is usually intelligent and interesting, hence why I was paying attention to the argument in the first place rather than just going "lol, here's someone being a dick" and moving on, but I appreciate that getting in big heated arguments online does not always automatically bring out the best in people.

 

[StoneRoad]

Aaaaaaand Parler is now gone from the Apple Store too.

I reckon that the FBI need to run an ISP (proxy server) to make it appear that parler have found a way to stay on AWS - they can then monitor these shitheads and carry out enough busts to keep their violence under control. A bit safer than a physical infiltration.

I wouldn't normally advocate such clandestine monitoring, but for these fash, I'll make an exception.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I mean, I think there's a difference between "I think these things are exactly the same and there's no moral grounds to differentiate between the two" and "I think rightwing AFL-CIO bureaucrats/Democrat politicians/the cops/whoever will treat these things the same way and so we should be wary of stuff like the language of terrorism/anti-terrorism, etc".

Fwiw I think that person is usually intelligent and interesting, hence why I was paying attention to the argument in the first place rather than just going "lol, here's someone being a dick" and moving on, but I appreciate that getting in big heated arguments online does not always automatically bring out the best in people.

I can see both sides of the argument, but you don't have to approve in any way of what he did to think it isn't the union's place or job to take action. Isn't it the state's place and job to take action against him if they think he's done something wrong?

Either way, not the place for those not in the union to tell it what to do in this case, imo.

 

[hitmouse]

Oh yeah, I can also see both sides of the argument which is why I'm being a useless fencesitter here. I suppose the other side is that unions, like any membership association, have the right to have certain expectations of their members and expel people who don't live up to them - like, I think it is a good thing if unions say "workers are stronger when we're united and weaker when we're divided" and adopt antiracist/antifascist positions on those grounds, and if they decide that one way of putting that into practice is to expel people who take part in far-right actions, that also seems pretty justifiable to me.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Oh yeah, I can also see both sides of the argument which is why I'm being a useless fencesitter here. I suppose the other side is that unions, like any membership association, have the right to have certain expectations of their members and expel people who don't live up to them - like, I think it is a good thing if unions say "workers are stronger when we're united and weaker when we're divided" and adopt antiracist/antifascist positions on those grounds, and if they decide that one way of putting that into practice is to expel people who take part in far-right actions, that also seems pretty justifiable to me.

Yes, and these were white supremacists, that's clear enough. But that's the union's business, imo. Bit of a cop-out perhaps, but also that's a principle in itself - the union should have the autonomy to make its own rules on this kind of matter.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

I had someone I'm arguing with on the internet (yes, I know its a character flaw), seriously try to use this as support for the idea that Antifa was behind the violence:

BLM activist inside Capitol claims he was 'documenting' riots, once said 'burn it all down' | Fox News

 

[ska invita]

the union should have the autonomy to make its own rules on this kind of matter.

Should be a rulebook and a process no?

 

[Wilf]

The closing of the neo-liberal ranks - from social media billionaires, to finance capital; from the manufacturers organisations previously cautiously supportive to previously supportive elements within the GOP - against Trump demonstrates the extent to which the ruling elite, backed by all the forces of the state are determined to restore a neoliberal status quo. Their analysis is that liberal democracy remains the best option for the restoration of their control.

As the article states the restoration of bipartisan neoliberal stability under Biden is both now inevitable and a return to precisely what created the conditions for the extreme right’s growth in the first place.

As the authors write “the riots in Washington have not emerged from a division within the ruling elite and have left the American capitalist class more unified than ever. They have not only extended their support to liberal democratic state processes in general, but also to the Democratic Party and Joe Biden in particular.

To be sure, the Trumpian right will hardly vanish from the political stage when the transfer of power does occur. Nor will GOP primaries stop serving as engines of far-right radicalization once Trump leaves office. Indeed, Trump himself is an outcome of this very dynamic....”

They conclude “Only by organizing and fighting, both on the terrain of the state and in the streets, can the Left hope to make any real progress toward addressing the climate emergency, mitigating the social crisis wrought by decades of neoliberalism, and expanding vital programs for social provision, such as Medicare for All. And this will mean not just defeating the Right, but also taking on Biden and the Democratic establishment, now poised to serve as the crucial vehicle for renewing the neoliberal consensus”

The Washington Riot Was a Defeat for the Far Right, Not a Triumph

The riot at the Capitol on Wednesday was a symptom of right-wing weakness, not power. The real danger isn’t a MAGA coup, but a restoration of the neoliberal status quo that produced the nightmare of Trump and his minions.

jacobinmag.com

I was just watching CNN, which I hardly ever do and you could get a sense of neo-liberalism reforming and excluding the far right. There was an almost physical sense of 'moderate' republicans being dragged into the fold. Of course what the far right becomes once it has officially been locked out of power along with trump's betrayal of them, is the interesting question.

 

[Winot]

This is pretty impressive - looks like the lone black policeman that the mob chased after was actually leading them away from Senators and into a trap:

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I had someone I'm arguing with on the internet (yes, I know its a character flaw), seriously try to use this as support for the idea that Antifa was behind the violence:

BLM activist inside Capitol claims he was 'documenting' riots, once said 'burn it all down' | Fox News

I really don't think people believe themselves when they say this sort of thing.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

the union should have the autonomy to make its own rules on this kind of matter.

Should be a rulebook and a process no?

well, yes.

my union's rule book includes

The Executive Committee’s duties shall be:

...

to suspend, dismiss or remove from office members obtaining benefits by false pretences or engaging in or promoting racist activity or racial discrimination, or for other actions which, in the opinion of the Executive Committee, are detrimental to TSSA’s interests

not quite sure that the washington thing was overtly racist activity, but could come under the 'detrimental to interests' clause or similar.

 

[StoneRoad]

Staff handbook at one of my previous employers had a clause under the gross mis-conduct provisions that meant if you did anything, even in your private life, that could be classed as bringing the company name into disrepute they could take disciplinary action, up to and including instant dismissal.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I was just watching CNN, which I hardly ever do and you could get a sense of neo-liberalism reforming and excluding the far right. There was an almost physical sense of 'moderate' republicans being dragged into the fold. Of course what the far right becomes once it has officially been locked out of power along with trump's betrayal of them, is the interesting question.

Yes, as the article notes those committed to pro working class politics must remain vigilant about the shape and direction that the far right takes after Trump. It’s not going anywhere, and it understands the possible reservoirs of sympathy that have emerged over the last half century.

But the Jacobin article is right: Biden and the Democratic establishment have now clearly adopted the mantle of saving and renewing the neoliberal consensus and how (if?) the left orientates and responds to this is critical.

 

[deeyo]

I had someone I'm arguing with on the internet (yes, I know its a character flaw), seriously try to use this as support for the idea that Antifa was behind the violence:

BLM activist inside Capitol claims he was 'documenting' riots, once said 'burn it all down' | Fox News

that guy seems dodgy, though.

 

[belboid]

that guy seems dodgy, though.

aah, I saw him on the Wednesday night/thursday morning, speaking to CNN about what he'd seen of the shooting. Couldn't work out what the fuck he was doing there.

 

[two sheds]

Spoiler

Copper beaten and died later in the day - they'll be concentrating on identifying that lot, imagine some hefty prison sentences.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

that guy seems dodgy, though.

That's interesting and yes he does sound dodge from that, though haven't looked into it further.

There were definitely real left-wing indie journalists who went to the march to document it, as you'd expect, though they are generally skint so I don't know how many could afford to travel to DC, but I've not heard of any who went actually into the Capitol.

(I was chatting to a friend of mine as it started kicking off who knows I do protest photography and she said "bet you wish you were there" and I was like "actually yeah think I'll pass on this".)

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

Spoiler

Copper beaten and died later in the day - they'll be concentrating on identifying that lot, imagine some hefty prison sentences.

Potential death penalty?

 

[killer b]

Staff handbook at one of my previous employers had a clause under the gross mis-conduct provisions that meant if you did anything, even in your private life, that could be classed as bringing the company name into disrepute they could take disciplinary action, up to and including instant dismissal.

sure, but this is not actually a good thing.

 

[StoneRoad]

sure, but this is not actually a good thing.

Yeah, I know - but part of the company is/was based in the states (and an "at will" one at that) and some of the upper echelons thought they needed big sticks to beat the workforce with, or at least the threat of big sticks - the same senior people were in the process of trying to de-unionise the workforce at the same time.
They're not in business now, as far as I know. There were some takeovers after I left, as the atmosphere had gone - in modern parlance - totally toxic.

 

[rubbershoes]

Spoiler

Copper beaten and died later in the day - they'll be concentrating on identifying that lot, imagine some hefty prison sentences.

There's video of it too so getting an ID on the people involved should be more likely

 

[hitmouse]

Staff handbook at one of my previous employers had a clause under the gross mis-conduct provisions that meant if you did anything, even in your private life, that could be classed as bringing the company name into disrepute they could take disciplinary action, up to and including instant dismissal.

Yeah, that's another thing I wobble back and forth on indecisively - lots of places will have that contract language, and obviously it's a bad thing that we should oppose, not something to celebrate. On the other hand, it's not like there are any employers that are going "well, we were about to give up the power to discipline our workforce, but then people asked us to fire this nazi, so now we're not going to do that".

 

[hitmouse]

Some fairly straightforward stuff about likely state responses under Biden:
You can’t fight fascism by expanding the police state
A Domestic Terrorism Law Can’t Solve Right-Wing Violence

 

[bimble]

Putting to one side all that stuff I was saying about not calling them stupid, quite a lot of people on Parler have responded to this.