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Urban v's the Commentariat

Sometimes, in my darker moments, I wonder whether the turn to identity politics was engineered in some way. :(
I speculate that the Special Demonstration Squad (or whatever they have been renamed as) would use exactly these tactics to divide us, cause dismay and bitterness and ultimately stop challenging systems, structures and capital. I look with a very beady eye at certain people and their actions.
 
What can be done to combat all this poop?

PolPot.jpg
 
What can be done to combat all this poop?

The biggest issue is getting past the thinking (which was and is arguably aided by policies such as "official" multiculturalism) that each group has to secure the future of that group, because we're sure as hell stronger standing together, than we are as relatively-impotent interest groups standing apart.
I'm not sure how that can be done, though. Identity politics, and the interest groups that it has created, mean that for some of those "fronting" or "leading" such groups, there are what we could politely call "personal motives" for keeping left politics fractured - it's easier to control a small fiefdom, than a large kingdom. As ever, I think that the only route out of this is local grassroots activism setting an example that proves that working together is better than failing apart.
 
Were you able to restrain yourself from laughing in his face?

This was shortly after I was called a racist for pondering the question of what might happen were one to pass wind whilst wearing a burqa (would it get trapped inside, suffocating the farter like those paper overalls with elastic ankles and sleaves or might there be a different dynamic at work?) so my restraint had already been broken :(
 
This was shortly after I was called a racist for pondering the question of what might happen were one to pass wind whilst wearing a burqa so my restraint had already been broken :(

He'd have probably called you a textilist if you'd pondered the question of what might happen if you farted while under your quilt. People like that never see beyond being able to score imaginary points. They certainly don't make good activists (where a raw sense of humour is pretty much an essential).
 
He'd have probably called you a textilist if you'd pondered the question of what might happen if you farted while under your quilt. People like that never see beyond being able to score imaginary points. They certainly don't make good activists (where a raw sense of humour is pretty much an essential).

I'm working (well, he's working, I'm volunteering) with a bloke whose mum wears a burqa. After this little episode I asked him if he found it offensive and he replied that the most offensive thing about it was that, as a joke, it wasn't especially funny. I asked him to ask his mum and apparently she laughed and her response to the question in the joke was something along the lines of, 'how should I know? I never fart' :D
 
The biggest issue is getting past the thinking (which was and is arguably aided by policies such as "official" multiculturalism) that each group has to secure the future of that group, because we're sure as hell stronger standing together, than we are as relatively-impotent interest groups standing apart.
I'm not sure how that can be done, though. Identity politics, and the interest groups that it has created, mean that for some of those "fronting" or "leading" such groups, there are what we could politely call "personal motives" for keeping left politics fractured - it's easier to control a small fiefdom, than a large kingdom. As ever, I think that the only route out of this is local grassroots activism setting an example that proves that working together is better than failing apart.

Well said. I find being in a university environment means that I sometimes find it harder to remember that these tiny groups of uber wadicals represent basically nothing and that as and when serious grassroots campaigns arise, these people will either be nowhere near them or completely ignored.
 
Well said. I find being in a university environment means that I sometimes find it harder to remember that these tiny groups of uber wadicals represent basically nothing and that as and when serious grassroots campaigns arise, these people will either be nowhere near them or completely ignored.

all campaigns that they aren't involved in are racist, sexist, transphobic, or patriarchal. the evidence is that they must be, or the wadicals would be involved. ipso facto, innit :D
 
plus, a lot of them are big issue radicals. they think you can't fix the small stuff whilst the big stuff is in place. so why bother. better to bring down capitalism and oppression and usher in the revolution first. via the tactic of calling other activists racist on twitter. the logic is sound*, of course. society is racist. anything that happens in that society is therefore racist. therefore all activists (not including them and their friends) are racist.



* sound, like some sort of farting noise.
 
plus, a lot of them are big issue radicals. they think you can't fix the small stuff whilst the big stuff is in place. so why bother. better to bring down capitalism and oppression and usher in the revolution first. via the tactic of calling other activists racist on twitter. the logic is sound*, of course. society is racist. anything that happens in that society is therefore racist. therefore all activists (not including them and their friends) are racist.



* sound, like some sort of farting noise.
Reminds me of Jehovah's Witnesses. In a roundabout way.
 
plus, a lot of them are big issue radicals. they think you can't fix the small stuff whilst the big stuff is in place. so why bother. better to bring down capitalism and oppression and usher in the revolution first. via the tactic of calling other activists racist on twitter. the logic is sound*, of course. society is racist. anything that happens in that society is therefore racist. therefore all activists (not including them and their friends) are racist.



* sound, like some sort of farting noise.

I don't think that's true of them at all. In fact, despite claiming to be anarchists and communists, you almost never hear them speak of capitalism and revolution in any substantial or meaningful way. Rather I think they believe that it is exactly through calling out the 'small stuff' that the 'big stuff' will be challenged, because oppression is replicated through the most minute of behaviours.
 
The best question for Sam, in my opinion, was 'what are you for?', because really, beyond 'not being a dick', it's not clear.
 
I don't think that's true of them at all. In fact, despite claiming to be anarchists and communists, you almost never hear them speak of capitalism and revolution in any substantial or meaningful way. Rather I think they believe that it is exactly through calling out the 'small stuff' that the 'big stuff' will be challenged, because oppression is replicated through the most minute of behaviours.

that seems like quite deep theory. i'm not yet convinced that they've thought it through that much.
 
plus, a lot of them are big issue radicals. they think you can't fix the small stuff whilst the big stuff is in place. so why bother. better to bring down capitalism and oppression and usher in the revolution first. via the tactic of calling other activists racist on twitter. the logic is sound*, of course. society is racist. anything that happens in that society is therefore racist. therefore all activists (not including them and their friends) are racist.



* sound, like some sort of farting noise.

For they alone possess the power to exist in a protective bubble, shielded from the infectious prejudice of the outside world.
 
I don't think anyone comes out of this looking good to be honest. I don't think either side put forward arguments well or in a way that was likely to function as good communication with the other side.

In case Sam comes back, here's an answer that might be a bit more readable than the aggression she encountered. I've actually liked the intersectionalist theories I've read and I suspect some people on here have as well. A big problem with the twittersectionalists people have here is they somehow manage to downplay class constantly (and this point was put to you a bit but quite aggressively). I don't think intersectionalist theory has to be used in that way. And you, Sam, if you ever look back in here, seem to have joined a blogosphere/twittersphere group that probably doesn't want to think about class for a reason: that they are the beneficiaries in that game. You yourself may not be and I'm happy to take your word for that. But you've become part of a little internet scene and there are reasons people here have a problem with that scene. I couldn't necessarily say those people are on the wrong side of the capital-labour divide, but as high-end waged workers they may be in an incredibly comfortable position - and I have been told off recently for 'wrong' views on intersectionalism by a black woman who's parents have a small property empire (true story). I didn't think much of her position I can tell you. I think what she was doing was divisive but did it really *matter* to her as much as to someone who really needs political struggle to have a decent standard of living? I'm sure you are different from some of the other participants in that scene, but you could think a bit more about what you've become part of - why it is that class is not discussed much.

We're (nearly) all being fucked, Sam. Some to differing degrees and in differing ways, but we *are* all being fucked and that is why class arguments matter. That doesn't mean race, gender etc issues should be ignored or that class trumps all. But it's pretty fucking important and this is not reflected much in the twittersphere you are part of.

And the second major point. I don't mind certain statements that could come out of privilege theory. There are people here who are hardline against it but I can see some reason for it. But again where it has led lately in the groups you have been frequenting is deeply problematic. I would have no issue with the statements "White people should listen more to the experiences of black people" or "men should listen more to women." They are general statements that confront some power dynamics in our society. However to move from that to say that, say, a white person should always bow to the opinion of a black person on race issues, or that someone with a certain skin colour does not have a right to an opinion on certain issues, is a brutal and nasty leap of logic. It also does not chime with people's experience, since I'm sure white people here have met black people who say 'I don't think racism is an issue - black people should stop moaning about it' or women who are anti-feminist. But there is more to it than that. The leap from a general statement about power dynamics (as above) to saying that each individual takes on their oppressed-race or oppressed-gender role when they speak on those issues is actually quite horrendous. It is not much better than race essentialism or gender essentialism. It has progressed from those to a 'race experience' essentialism or a 'gender experience' essentialism that ignores the wildly differing experiences people might have, the wildly differing reactions they might have, and ignores all the ways in which people who are oppressed might become complicit in their oppression (perhaps for reasonable, perhaps for selfish reasons) and all the ways in which one can learn to empathise across oppressed groups. It also assumes that you can *spot* the forms of oppression a person is subject to, or even that you can ask them what their oppressions are and get a full answer (you can't).

In addition, we have to develop discourse among ourselves collectively and we are all participants in that. Most of us have had quite enough of being told to shut up by those in power, or being ignored because we don't matter. Having our allies telling us to shut up because of our skin colour is not going to create a struggle we can be part of. Being told to be a bit quieter so others can speak - that I can deal with - being told my opinion on anti-racist struggles doesn't matter if I try to put myself on the lines in that struggle? That doesn't work for me, and nor will it work for millions of other people who you are potentially putting off political action with this line of logic.

Hope that helps. Really.

He turned up on my Twitter yesterday threatening that I had 12 hours to return to Twitter. I was an Independent Domestic Abuse Advocate for 8 years, I know a dodgy man when I see one. If I don't have to engage with him and the sidekick whose name begins with a T (I wasn't really paying attention) then sure, I think we can talk about things properly.
 
He turned up on my Twitter yesterday threatening that I had 12 hours to return to Twitter. I was an Independent Domestic Abuse Advocate for 8 years, I know a dodgy man when I see one. If I don't have to engage with him and the sidekick whose name begins with a T (I wasn't really paying attention) then sure, I think we can talk about things properly.
I'm fairly sure what you're talking about was posted to you by someone who is banned from this website.
 
He turned up on my Twitter yesterday threatening that I had 12 hours to return to Twitter. I was an Independent Domestic Abuse Advocate for 8 years, I know a dodgy man when I see one. If I don't have to engage with him and the sidekick whose name begins with a T (I wasn't really paying attention) then sure, I think we can talk about things properly.

What would you like to talk about Sam?
 
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