urban Lib Dem voters! What do you think of what's going on?

[scifisam]

Clegg's campaign was built on radical this, radical that. That was the entire spin as Butchers said. Find something that refutes the links asked for, rather than providing links showing that other people were doing it too.

The claim was that LibDem voters (not all, but enough to justify acting as if it were all) were claiming to be radical, therefore it's fair to jump up and down and gloat at them.

If someone was a LibDem and claiming to be radical because of it, then it doesn't take this election result for them to deserve mild mocking.

 

[butchersapron]

No Really? No one engaged with my reasons, nor Fran's afaics... (and that's off the top of my head). And what's the point of debating with people who aren't here? Who's sposed to answer to it?

What reasons?

 

[scifisam]

Cites -you mean refs of people endlessly saying they'll put up with a tory govt for PR. No, i don't need to ref such a commonly made claim.

You reckon that 'indisputably similar to radical'? Doesn't take much to be radical then!

 

[butchersapron]

The claim was that LibDem voters (not all, but enough to justify acting as if it were all) were claiming to be radical, therefore it's fair to jump up and down and gloat at them.

You were and you are. You're all arsed because you've been shown to be effectively tories.

 

[butchersapron]

You reckon that 'indisputably similar to radical'? Doesn't take much to be radical then!

If they endlessly say that PR is going to change things forever, break the mould of British politics, yeah that's pretty radical.

 

[butchersapron]

Mine neither.

What reasons?

 

[scifisam]

You were and you are. You're all arsed because you've been shown to be effectively tories.

You're posting from some parallel universe, aren't you? Typical - internet gets invented and is used for porn, and a connection to parallel worlds is opened and used for rambling on messageboards.

 

[mrsfran]

So you don't do it and therefore no one did. You'd rightly scoff at anyone daft enough to claim this for any other issue.

I explained my experience and asked someone to clarify theirs. No, I don't think my experience = everyone else's. I'm sure there are people out there who thought they were being radical by voting Lib Dem. But I'm also sure that they're a naive minority and not an element large enough to justify the anger/crowing of some people towards people who voted Lib Dem. That crowing and anger has been present in this thread, but no one in this thread has said they voted for Lib Dems to be radical. You can see how it feels like being chided for holding an attitude you don't have?

 

[cesare]

The claim was that LibDem voters (not all, but enough to justify acting as if it were all) were claiming to be radical, therefore it's fair to jump up and down and gloat at them.

If someone was a LibDem and claiming to be radical because of it, then it doesn't take this election result for them to deserve mild mocking.

The claim was:

It's natural there will be an element of 'crowing', or whatever you want to call it.

There was a certain element among some LibDem voters* in the lead up to the election of self-righteousness, in the vein of 'look at me, I'm dead radical I am'. When asked about the neo-liberal economics, the various tory-like aspects of their policies, their history, etc., the response was usually in line with the fluffy-wuffy spin that attracts people who want to be progressive but don't want to do it outside of the big 3 - socially progressive policies trumping neo-liberal economic realities within the party.

When some of these people work out things aren't what they first thought (despite having had it suggested to them beforehand) it's pretty natural the people for whom it was bleedingly obvious, and for those people who tried to argue it, to crow. People are petty, and they like to say I told you so. It doesn't mean they're happy with the current political situation, but they're quite pleased with themselves that at least they didn't pretend things were anything other than they are beforehand.


*I'M NOT SAYING THIS IS ANYONE ON THIS THREAD, BEFORE I AM SHOUTED AT.

Nothing about "fair" and no mention of numbers.

 

[mrsfran]

What reasons?

I'll repeat myself:

I'm not thrilled with the result, but I remain ok with the fact that I did not vote for Labour or the Conservatives, two parties I do not currently support. I voted Lib Dem because I wanted to register a vote for change. I voted positively, with hope, rather than with an "anyone but the Tories even if it means voting for a party I don't like" attitude.

And now I think the best possible outcome is that the Tories try for a minority government without the Libs Dems, fuck it up, and within a year we get a Lab/Lib coalition that includes electoral reform.

 

[TAE]

I know there's a few Lib Dem voters here, so I'm interested to hear your response to Clegg's cuddling up to the Tories.

Do you now feel proud of your vote? Ashamed? Cheated? Delighted?

I'm disapointed that so few people voted against Con / Lab.

As I think the Tories are as bad as Labour, it makes little difference to me who governs. Labour have introduced enough laws to create a police state, while the Tories are not very nice when it comes to social issues. Great choice.

My main concern is therefore getting the voting system changed. I'm still waiting to see what happens on that front. If Clegg accepts a coalition without getting a referendum on a serious move away from FPTP, I will be rather ... disapointed.

 

[Vintage Paw]

I'm not invalidating your experience by asking you to clarify it.

How do I clarify it? I've tried to be as clear as possible about the things people I know or am acquainted with, either online or not, have said about their reasons for voting LibDem. Without posting their names and transcriptions of conversations I don't know what else I can do.

 

[butchersapron]

I explained my experience and asked someone to clarify theirs. No, I don't think my experience = everyone else's. I'm sure there are people out there who thought they were being radical by voting Lib Dem. But I'm also sure that they're a naive minority and not an element large enough to justify the anger/crowing of some people towards people who voted Lib Dem. That crowing and anger has been present in this thread, but no one in this thread has said they voted for Lib Dems to be radical. You can see how it feels like being chided for holding an attitude you don't have?

Of course they wouldn't - it self selects them away, they skulk in the shdows.

I can understand but i don't care.

 

[butchersapron]

I'll repeat myself:

What's not been addressed?

 

[Proper Tidy]

But a lot of the Liberal vote clearly was people who would probably regard themselves as 'progressives' on even left-wingers swinging behind the Liberals and dressing them up as a radical party of change read to smash the monopoly of the Big Two. The fact that the Liberals politics didn't match this characterisation was barely commented on in the media.

You want evidence then look at the Guardian and the Indie over the last few weeks; the celebrities lining up to support them; the massive young people and student support the Whigs hoovered up.

Have these people been dickheads? Yes, they have. They've sided with a party that rides the very small gap between Tory and Labour based on a few abstract policies like PR and Trident, all of which are utterly fucking unprincipled positions anyway, whilst ignoring that the Liberals economic position is far closer to the Tories than anybody else's, or the fact that the Liberals are not any of the following: New; progressive; radical.

Did it take the election and the aftermath for us to realise they were dickheads? No. Has it taken the election and the aftermath for these people to realise they are dickheads? Yes.

Most of my family voted Liberal. They are now all saying 'wish I'd have voted Labour' because they don't want to have effectively voted for a Tory government (not that they have as our Labour MP got returned but still). Now of course, a Labour government still wouldn't have been good for the working class or the majority - but there is still a visceral hatred of the Tory party even amongst the less politically inclined, and they don't want Tories. So now they're angry, and personally I'm quite enjoying mocking them.

 

[butchersapron]

Semi-drunk guilty lib-dems, the worst chest-prodders ever.

Don''t
prod
you
prod
support
prod
progress and
prod
fairness

 

[claphamboy]

Urbanz seems to think most LibDem voters are either closet Labour supporters or ‘radicals’.

Meanwhile in the real world, most are middle-class Mr & Mrs J. Public, and if not a majority, certainly a massive minority would support the Tories over Labour especially at the moment.

Let’s not forget the LibDem’s support grow from around 4% under the Tory governments to over 20% in opposition to Labour being in power.

 

[butchersapron]

Urbanz seems to think most LibDem voters are either closet Labour supporters or ‘radicals’.

Meanwhile in the real world, most are middle-class Mr & Mrs J. Public, and if not a majority, certainly a massive minority would support the Tories over Labour especially at the moment.

Let’s not forget the LibDem’s support grow from around 4% under the Tory governments to over 20% in opposition to Labour being in power.

You're mental if you think those figures are correct.

 

[sihhi]

Ooh, get you. I'd love to say either myself or any other socialists had any influence on the woman in question, but she was somebody I spoke to for ten minutes at a Billy Bragg gig and flogged a few papers to over the space of a year, not a former comrade.

I don't think it is an easy mistake either. I think there is a world between the faux-radicalism of the Whigs and class politics.

Sorry, I wasn't attacking you personally. I'm really sorry if it came across like that.

It was a general 'you' as in sometimes particularly young people are spoken to by some socialists on a very general level which can lead to such a general world-view, where Lib Dems/Greens = realistic but soft radicals. 'Socialists' = unrealistic, unlikely-to-ever-happen radicals.

Perhaps it doesn't happen so much now that the Iraq war is no longer in public focus.

 

[mrsfran]

What's not been addressed?

Nothing, because there's nothing there for you to rail against, so you just skipped past it. It doesn't fit the caricature of a Lib Dem voter you're trying to portray.

And for the record, I haven't had a drink for 5 months.

 

[claphamboy]

You're mental if you think those figures are correct.

They are - go take a look - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_elections

 

[butchersapron]

Nothing, because there's nothing there for you to rail against, so you just skipped past it. It doesn't fit the caricature of a Lib Dem voter you're trying to portray.

And for the record, I don't drink.

It was suggested that your points weren't addressed. Which ones weren't? What have i skipped past? There's not a single thing in what you said that hasn't been dissected or taken apart on here many times over the last few days. Nothing has been skipped.

 

[butchersapron]

They are - go take a look - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_elections

I know the figures very well indeed - better than you. That's how i know that you're wrong. And that's how i know why you won't link to them but to a general page.

 

[ernestolynch]

Have to say that dozens of my former students regarded the LDs as a radical change vote, according to their facebookery.

The U75 politicians spend so long on here they are disconnected from the real world.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Sorry, I wasn't attacking you personally. I'm really sorry if it came across like that.

It was a general 'you' as in sometimes particularly young people are spoken to by some socialists on a very general level which can lead to such a general world-view, where Lib Dems/Greens = realistic but soft radicals. 'Socialists' = unrealistic, unlikely-to-ever-happen radicals.

Perhaps it doesn't happen so much now that the Iraq war is no longer in public focus.

Sorry, was assuming it was a dig. Whoops.

No tbf I think you're right. It is superficial really - they see the far left as 'radical' and 'promising something different' but they also see hard work, few rewards, being seen as on the fringes, without really having an understanding of the politics, and then they see the liberal parties - same phenomenon happens with Plaid in these parts - offering radicalism and change and also mainstream legitimacy and clockwork politics, and they suck it up, whilst still not actually getting to grasps with the politics of it all. That's why they focus on some minutiae like Trident or PR or downloading & piracy, instead of looking at who's interests this particular party represents.

 

[Vintage Paw]

There isn't just one type of LibDem voter, and I for one would not attempt to suggest there was.

Since we tend to categorise things in order to make sense of them, it is quite normal to identify types of voter, with the understanding that it is a generalisation, and that it is more about a spectrum of ideas than neat little boxes. And so there will be claphamboy's middle of the road, middle class LibDem voter, there will be the tactical LibDem voter (and within that a whole range of different tactics and reasons for them), there will be the LibDem voter for whom the LibDems represented a woolly left-wing progressive 'radical' *shudder* option, and there will be LibDem voters that fall in all sorts of places in between. It is perfectly acceptable to have a discussion about the motivations behind any of these 'types' of voter, and it doesn't mean all those types are being discussed in the same way.

If the characterisation of LibDem voter we are discussing doesn't fit your view of what type of LibDem voter you are, that isn't a reason to say that characterisation isn't valid, isn't worth discussing, and it isn't a justification to try to shut down any debate of it.

And people crow. Get over it.

 

[mrsfran]

I've now been thrown off the computer, can't engage in lengthy political debate via phone. Cheerio.

 

[editor]

Have to say that dozens of my former students regarded the LDs as a radical change vote, according to their facebookery.

The U75 politicians spend so long on here they are disconnected from the real world.

I certainly know a few people who thought the Lib Dems were some sort of radical alternative to the Tories and Labour.

I guess they're feeling a bit silly now.

 

[butchersapron]

The thread just proved that they'e not though.

 

[cesare]

I certainly know a few people who thought the Lib Dems were some sort of radical alternative to the Tories and Labour.

I guess they're feeling a bit silly now.

There's a few that are rethinking their position. But if the forums are anything to go by, they're mostly defending it.