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understanding China better

These restrictions don't apply everywhere though do they? The hotels I stay in in China are unrestricted and what surprised me more was one of the factories I work in (just outside of Zhuhai) doesn't have restrictions either. I'll be checking this again when I return next month. The gaffer lets his workers use the computers in the office after they knock off on a night as well.
But sadly it seems that the people using this unrestricted internet are only interested in it for looking at porn. Any travellers out there - check the history on any business centre computer. ;)
Seems if you've got money/are a businessman the rules don't apply to you......
 
pinkmonkey said:
These restrictions don't apply everywhere though do they? The hotels I stay in in China are unrestricted and what surprised me more was one of the factories I work in (just outside of Zhuhai) doesn't have restrictions either. I'll be checking this again when I return next month. The gaffer lets his workers use the computers in the office after they knock off on a night as well.
But sadly it seems that the people using this unrestricted internet are only interested in it for looking at porn. Any travellers out there - check the history on any business centre computer. ;)
Seems if you've got money/are a businessman the rules don't apply to you......

TBH, I had no idea that exclusive hotels in China were immune from the "Great Firewall of China". I wonder what sort of arrangement they make with the central government to get around this. However, I don't imagine that the porn sites that these businessmen visit - despite being immoral - have any effect on the subversive element that the Chinese government are trying to supress.

I imagine, irrespective of where you are located, these internet measures will take a while to reach full fruitation. It is not simply a case of blocking all sites with a particular extension such as .co.uk / co.de, as this would be severely detrimental to Chinese businesses. Everything will have to be done on a case-by-case observation.
 
pinkmonkey said:
These restrictions don't apply everywhere though do they? The hotels I stay in in China are unrestricted and what surprised me more was one of the factories I work in (just outside of Zhuhai) doesn't have restrictions either. I'll be checking this again when I return next month. The gaffer lets his workers use the computers in the office after they knock off on a night as well.
But sadly it seems that the people using this unrestricted internet are only interested in it for looking at porn. Any travellers out there - check the history on any business centre computer. ;)
Seems if you've got money/are a businessman the rules don't apply to you......

Actually the firewall doesn't block porn anyway. It's the BBC's site (although you can still listen to the radio), anything with blog in the title, CNN and politically sensitive stuff that it blocks.
 
pinkmonkey said:
To be fair, China is about as communist as my arse, so comparing it to Cuba, I wouldn't bother. I've worked in Vietnam and that to me, is a true communist country.
Wow a stateless, classless society? Blimey how'd i miss that? :D
 
Taxamo Welf said:
Wow a stateless, classless society? Blimey how'd i miss that? :D

No, not like that......<I'm fond of making sweeping statements without thinking first ;) :p > I can only go on my own past experience, as you can tell I'm no politics boffin I think that workers are a bit better protected than in China. Here the labour laws are better enforced. In China they are pretty much ornamental - any ethical standards you have to set yourself. I was party to a conversation - I was with someone who wanted to place a really big order with a factory but they said they couldn't make it in time, they didn't have space. The customer said, 'Can't you get them to do overtime? He refused, he said he was only allowed to add two hours a week or he'd be fined. I've noticed this kind of thing in several different places I've worked all over Vietnam. This doesn't happen in China.
The overemployment side of communism I find really difficult to get my head round. 25 people working on the reception desk, when 2 will do? It also took them eight years to build a road here - they gave everyone living on that road the job of building it rather than use JCB's. If you refused to help build the road you were fined.
The people I know here say theres a lot more corruption here than China - they have offices in both countries.
 
RenegadeDog said:
Actually the firewall doesn't block porn anyway. It's the BBC's site (although you can still listen to the radio), anything with blog in the title, CNN and politically sensitive stuff that it blocks.

I know I can get cnn and bbc on these computers because I access both of them a lot when I'm there.
I read Editors' blog last time I was there, too, so there must be some kind of two tier system.

RB I will have to meet you when I'm back in November - you can come to the business centre and read the BBC website! :D
 
Report on reconnaisance mission to Shenzhen 26/12/05.

Right then.

Safe home again - I'm really glad I'm still flying under the radar of the authorities. S'funny really, they know enough about me and what I do, but they just didn't put 2 + 2 together when I applied for a multi-entry last year - went in with a batch at the same time as about 200 other "tourists".

Anyhow, Shenzhen is absolutely rocking peeps. Fifty years ago it was paddy fields, twenty five years ago a village. Ten years ago it was a train station, main street and hotel (well, a bit more,) and now it's a sprawling metropolis of ten million, mostly young, people. It rings with a youthful energy. A vibrancy. An urgency. There's a buzz in the air. A confidence.

This is a city on the move!


"The figure includes 310,000 aborignals, who lived in the place before the Shenzhen SEZ was built; 1.65 million registered permanent residence; 4.32 million permanent residents and more than 6 million immigrants who make their livings as temporary workers or babysitters in the city."



The City has increased it's population 32 times since it was designated China's first Special Economic Zone (SEZ) 25 years ago.


Hehehehehe! I smuggled-in two blow-up-balloon type thingy's, for my friends 5 year old daughter. I got from the last HK demo'. You blow them up and they are each about 3 feet long and 3 inches in diameter. Then you bang them together and they make a fuck off great rackett. Anyhoooo, they are bright yellow and have big fuck-off black characters on each that roughly translate as: "Everybody shout.....Power to the People!!"

That should stir up the local kindergarden tomorrow morning. :D


S'also funny reading some peeps on the boards. They tend to be older, either Brit or Septic and either Tory/GOP or, if to the left, seem stuck in some timewarp when thinking of China - Oh, and the hippies too for some reason. Anyway, they seem to think that China is still a place under the thumb of the Central Govt. That the CCP is a viable, central, united and uniting body, the fingers and eyes of which still intrude into every aspect of people's lives. A spy on every corner, just waiting for someone to whisper "Hu Jintao. Haaaah Toi!!", and whoosh, it's off to the Laogai.

Silly Billy's that they are.

It's not like that.

Shenzhen was established as the first SEZ with the sole purpose of mirroring Hong Kong. To try and imitate the golden-egg-laying goose. When set up, the SEZ was shut off from the rest of the country and opened up to HK. Just in case the experiment failed, Deng wanted to ensure that the rest of the Motherland wouldn't be "infected" by the capitalist disease that was HK. But boy oh boy did he want to know how to create a golden-egg-laying goose.

Well, the rest, as they say, is history. China is infected big time. The genie is well and truly out of the bottle. (Mainland) Chinese peeps still flock to Shenzhen in their hundreds of thousands each year. We honkies use it as a cheap place to play and party and invest for the future (it takes me a bit more than a half hour to get to Shenzhen, but an hour to hail to Wanchai - though I must say, I luuuuuuurve Wanchai). Even HK cab drivers have a wife (and two apartments) in the city. The number of HK men taking FIRST wives in Shenzhen has just overtaken the number with SECOND wives there.

The building continues madly, upwards and outwards, tower blocks and tower blocks, off into the distance. And then suddenly your in a wee sidestreet, dark and unpaved, three storey terraced village houses on either side, prostitutes - young, middle and aged, hawkers hawking their wares, dirty children and old men beggars (holding dirty children), a small industry in every doorway, and trading, trading, trading, trading, all over the street - anything and everything you could ever want, or imagine, from across China, and some stuff from waaaaaaaay beyond the imagination, and all at half the price, then half again, then subtract yer grannies age then half it again...... and then......DONE!!!

Then out the other end of the alley and suddenly...BANG...Bright lights, big city again.

The contrast is utterley sublime....Exquisite!

Shenzhen is now HK's rumbunctious, big brother - HK being the refined, smaller sister. HK is ordered, orderly and demure. Shenzhen is in your face, disorderly and totally out of order!

To say: "The Wild East." really just doesn't quite do it justice. The personal freedoms are astonishing. Everybody just doing their own thing. The kids are stylish in twenty different ways from grunge to punk to whichever. The rules are.......well, the RULE is......Don't get caught! And even if you do get caught, there's usually a way out for a few dollars more. Let's trade! What've you got? Heads down, work hard. There's money to be made, families to be fed and a future to be had.

I fookin' luv it!

An' fook the CCP too!

;)


Rock on China!

:cool:

Blessings all.

:)

Woof
 
fela fan said:
[and i'm more than aware about tibet and taiwan, but that hardly compares with the US and their military bases in over half the countries of the world]

That's a bit of a convenient dismissal though isn't it? Forced abortions and sterilisation on Tibetans for example do compare regardless of the nationality of the oppressor.
Not sure if you meant it like that hence the reply. :p
 
Dhimmi said:
That's a bit of a convenient dismissal though isn't it? Forced abortions and sterilisation on Tibetans for example do compare regardless of the nationality of the oppressor.
Not sure if you meant it like that hence the reply. :p

I doubt that (and hope and trust that not) many Tibetans undergo either forced abortions or forced sterilisations. One, of course, is too many and there are still sporadic outbreaks of one-child-madness in some provinces, which the Central authorities clamp down hard upon, but.....Tibetans? In any number?

Shoooooorely not!

:(

Gorra link?

:)

Woof
 
Jessiedog said:
I doubt that (and hope and trust that not) many Tibetans undergo either forced abortions or forced sterilisations. One, of course, is too many and there are still sporadic outbreaks of one-child-madness in some provinces, which the Central authorities clamp down hard upon, but.....Tibetans? In any number?
Shoooooorely not!

I first read about them in an Amnesty International report in the eighties, AI had reported hundreds within a few years as the worse end of the Chinese Government's attempts to erode Tibetan society and replace it with an oriental form of apartheid based on massive immigration from China, and all new housing, work and infrastructure being for the ethnic Chinese.
Don't get me wrong though I'm not suggesting China is a convenient future Evil Empire, just if anyone else has commited anything as insidious it's quite well recorded and mentioned.

Jessiedog said:
Gorra link?

Try AI, not sure how much pre-web reports are on their site though.
 
Dhimmi said:
I first read about them in an Amnesty International report in the eighties, AI had reported hundreds within a few years as the worse end of the Chinese Government's attempts to erode Tibetan society and replace it with an oriental form of apartheid based on massive immigration from China, and all new housing, work and infrastructure being for the ethnic Chinese.
Don't get me wrong though I'm not suggesting China is a convenient future Evil Empire, just if anyone else has commited anything as insidious it's quite well recorded and mentioned.



Try AI, not sure how much pre-web reports are on their site though.


Ahhhhhh!

I got it. You meant twenty years ago.

Thank fuck things have chaged alot since then. ALOT!

And thank fuck.

You should've seen the looks I got today. Strolling down the street, hand in hand with a little five year old girl. Hair in pigtails. Bright as a button. Chattering away in a wierd and wonderful mix of Cantonese, Phutonghua and whatever the Sichuan dialect is called. A beautiful mix of Han and summat else out of the west, a delightful green tint to the eyes. Swinging, dancing, laughing.

We had a great time!

:)

Woof
 
Jessiedog said:
S'also funny reading some peeps on the boards. They tend to be older, either Brit or Septic and either Tory/GOP or, if to the left, seem stuck in some timewarp when thinking of China - Oh, and the hippies too for some reason. Anyway, they seem to think that China is still a place under the thumb of the Central Govt. That the CCP is a viable, central, united and uniting body, the fingers and eyes of which still intrude into every aspect of people's lives. A spy on every corner, just waiting for someone to whisper "Hu Jintao. Haaaah Toi!!", and whoosh, it's off to the Laogai.

Silly Billy's that they are.

It's not like that.

While I'm aware that things have changed for the better for the average chinese and that the central government isn't in total control, that doesn't equate with the notion that China is my bestest buddy in the universe. There is a big gap in logic there. The average Chinese will do exactly what the average American will do -- look to their own interests. Just as the government, either American or Chinese will. You once accused me of being naive -- well I'm not naive enough to believe that everyone won't look to their own interests.

(I know you won't like the above, Jessie. You have to understand that your posts with nothing by "ra, ra China" are making me believe this. Nothing is ever as fluffy as it sounds).
 
Yuwipi Woman said:
While I'm aware that things have changed for the better for the average chinese and that the central government isn't in total control, that doesn't equate with the notion that China is my bestest buddy in the universe. There is a big gap in logic there. The average Chinese will do exactly what the average American will do -- look to their own interests. Just as the government, either American or Chinese will. You once accused me of being naive -- well I'm not naive enough to believe that everyone won't look to their own interests.
Nothing I really disagree with here Yuwipi.



(I know you won't like the above, Jessie. You have to understand that your posts with nothing by "ra, ra China" are making me believe this. Nothing is ever as fluffy as it sounds).
So why wouldn't I like the above?


But I do stand up for "China" and the Chinese people. Why wouldn't I?

My objective is simply to report and to inform, to comment and to entertain (myself and, hopefully, others) - and to try to dispel some of the wilder notions that people still hold of the country; nothing more.

And you must have missed the numerous posts I've made where I lambast the CCP, decry the political structure, gnash my teeth at the iniquities, shake my muzzle at the mad capitalist scramble and otherwise am scathing of both the government and the situation. Otherwise accusations of merely "ra, ra-ing", I fear, are a little unfair.

I am also doing whatever I can to make a positive contribution. I put myself at risk in doing so.

If that is "ra, ra-ing" China - so be it.

For me, it is just the most exciting of times and places to be. There is REAL change occurring, life-changing change, for hundreds of millions of people.

Right now, right here in greater China, history is being written. History that will deeply influence the future course of events upon this planet. History is being carved out in the most profound of ways and I do feel it is a privilege to be right at the epicentre and, moreover, to be a tiny part of something that in some small and insignificant way, is actually making a difference, is actually acting as a force which is contributing to the shaping of events as they happen.


S'cuse my enthusiasm.

I don't have many pleasures left in life.

Hmph!

*goes and sits on the rug*

:(



;)

Blessings to you and yours this winter season Yuwipi.

:)

:cool:

Woof
 
Jessiedog said:
Ahhhhhh!

I got it. You meant twenty years ago.

Thank fuck things have chaged alot since then. ALOT!

And thank fuck.

You should've seen the looks I got today. Strolling down the street, hand in hand with a little five year old girl. Hair in pigtails. Bright as a button. Chattering away in a wierd and wonderful mix of Cantonese, Phutonghua and whatever the Sichuan dialect is called. A beautiful mix of Han and summat else out of the west, a delightful green tint to the eyes. Swinging, dancing, laughing.

We had a great time!

:)

Woof


They having elections out there now, or are the CP still in charge?
 
exosculate said:
Wow - no ones in charge then....anarchy like?

Obviously it depends where you go. During the National Peoples Congress up in Beijing, I'm sure that a modicum of Central power is exerted over the delegates.

Down in Zhuhai or Shenzhen on a Saturday night? it's anarchy!

;)

Woof
 
Jessiedog said:
Obviously it depends where you go. During the National Peoples Congress up in Beijing, I'm sure that a modicum of Central power is exerted over the delegates.

Down in Zhuhai or Shenzhen on a Saturday night? it's anarchy!

;)

Woof

The CP are in control then, I see!
 
Jessiedog said:
That's not my reading of the situation.

:)

Woof


Jessie. Lets do role play. We are in a court room and I am a barrister and you are a witness.

Barrister : For the benefit of the court could you please explain whether the CP is in political control of China. Think carefully and speak truthfully, this would be the government that is recognised by its own people and the governments of the rest of the world. A simple yes or no answer will suffice.
 
exosculate said:
Jessie. Lets do role play. We are in a court room and I am a barrister and you are a witness.

Barrister : For the benefit of the court could you please explain whether the CP is in political control of China. Think carefully and speak truthfully, this would be the government that is recognised by its own people and the governments of the rest of the world. A simple yes or no answer will suffice.

Well Sir.

Are you asking me as a witness to a crime, an expert witness, or the accused (and if the latter, what is the charge)?

:)

Woof
 
Jessiedog said:
Well Sir.

Are you asking me as a witness to a crime, an expert witness, or the accused (and if the latter, what is the charge)?

:)

Woof


For the benefit of the court the witness answered yes.

You may step down from the witness box.

No further questions.
 
exosculate said:
The answer is too obvious for words jessie - you seem to mistake economic liberalisation with political liberalisation.

Well I'm sorry if I gave that impression.

They are (to me,) obviously very different things.

:confused:

That's not to say that China has not undergone a great deal of political liberalisation over the last couple of decades. It has.

Is China a "free", democratic, country? Of course not. It's the GCDP (Great Capitalist Dictatorship of the People ;) ). Are the 15 million peeps in Shenzhen and Zhuhai living in fear of the state, or any of its local organs? No. Are the people there pretty much free to do as they wish? Yup. Pretty much as free as HK, the UK or any such similar place. There are certain things that one shouldn't do - as there are anywhere, otherwise get on with things.

Am I philosophically opposed the the CCP and the political system in China? Yes I am. Do I want to see a more democratic China? Yes. Do I want certain laws and practices changed? Yes. Are there changes that I feel could and should happen immediately? Absolutely. Will China be a perfect society tomorrow? No. Ten years? No. Twenty years? Probably not. Is China today an immeasurably better place than it was thirty years ago? Undoubtedly. Will China be a better place ten years from now? I believe so. And in another ten after that I believe it will be a better place still. Am I doing my part to impact this country positively? I do what I can. Could and should I do more? Probably. Does what I do actually make any difference? I like to think I play a small role.

There are more than 1.3 billion people alive in this country. It is, therefore, my estimation that it is extremely important that China succeeds.

Is that OK exos?

:)

Woof
 
Just to say as a regular visitor to Zhuhai and Shenzen - it is how Jessiedog tells it. Save up, get on a plane, catch the ferry from Hong Kong and see it for yourself.
 
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