Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-25

[sleaterkinney]

Someone do that NATO made them do it joke and get the thread back on course please

Isn’t that what this is?

 

[Pickman's model]

It’s laid bare already.

It's bare poor

 

[Pickman's model]

Your Just Asking Questions. I'm Impartial And Make My Own Mind Up. is showing

C4u

 

[Pickman's model]

I issued a warning because I decided that his abuse had crossed the line and the warning would send out a message to others to wind it in.

But if you're going to insist that there's been some terrible moderation in this thread feel free to start a thread in the feedback with plenty of examples.

I wasn't going to say it was terrible moderation but now you point it out... and there are plenty of examples

 

[sleaterkinney]

In answer to your first point:
Yes, the quote I put in from Arakhamia ( interviewed in Nov 2023) clearly says that he felt that they thought they could force them to sign an agreement . I replied to an earlier question by saying that I wouldn't trust Putin so far from 'leaving it out' I actually concur with Arakhamia.

You left out the fact that one side thought the agreement wouldn't be honored.

It doesn't matter what you concur with, unless they're going to call you up to take part in the negotiations?.

In fact according to Responsible Statecraft : "Arakhamia also said that Kyiv’s lack of trust in the Russian side to fulfill its end of the bargain meant that the peace deal “could only be done if there were security guarantees” — suggesting, obliquely, that negotiations could have borne fruit had they received the backing and involvement of NATO states."

Which flows into me giving you some of the sources that inform my belief that there was some understanding of what an agreement might look like.


According to Zelensky in Ukraine Pravda: "The peace treaty with Russia could comprise two separate documents. One of them should deal with security guarantees for Ukraine, and the other directly with its relationship with the Russian Federation." April 2022

According to Fiona Hill and Angela Stent wrote in National Affairs “Russian and Ukrainian negotiators appeared to have tentatively agreed on the outlines of a negotiated interim settlement,”
“Russia would withdraw to its position on February 23, when it controlled part of the Donbas region and all of Crimea, and in exchange, Ukraine would promise not to seek NATO membership and instead receive security guarantees from a number of countries.” August 2022

So we're down to oblique suggestions and appearing to tentatively agree - according to an essay from the American Enterprise Institute?

 

[discokermit]

I issued a warning because I decided that his abuse had crossed the line and the warning would send out a message to others to wind it in.

But if you're going to insist that there's been some terrible moderation in this thread feel free to start a thread in the feedback with plenty of examples.

funny how you didnt decide to "send out a message" to the poster abusing me a few posts before it. also funny that your sending a message didnt work, as i was abused again by the same poster a few posts afterwards, and yet you decide not to send any more warnings.
very even handed.
we see you.

 

[Pickman's model]

You left out the fact that one side thought the agreement wouldn't be honored.

It doesn't matter what you concur with, unless they're going to call you up to take part in the negotiations?.



So we're down to oblique suggestions and appearing to tentatively agree - according to an essay from the American Enterprise Institute?

do you know, i was looking earlier through some things i've downloaded and found a paper on negotiating an end to war in ukraine https://www.inclusivepeace.org/wp-c...gotiations-preparations-briefingnote-2023.pdf don't think that's an aei pdf but i wait to be advised by you

 

[editor]

funny how you didnt decide to "send out a message" to the poster abusing me a few posts before it. also funny that your sending a message didnt work, as i was abused again by the same poster a few posts afterwards, and yet you decide not to send any more warnings.
very even handed.
we see you.

It's because you dropped the c bomb and I had no wish to see the discussion sink even lower. It's quite clearly explained in the forum rules. If you wish to continue complaining, take it to the feedback forum.

Oh, and "we see you"?

 

[Pickman's model]

It's because you dropped the c bomb and I had no wish to see the discussion sink even lower. It's quite clearly explained in the forum rules. If you wish to continue complaining, take it to the feedback forum.

Oh, and "we see you"?

if that's the bar here then this post should have had a warning too

That was, belive it or not, giving you the benefit of the doubt that you weren't seriously comparing the two. Facetious, as I said. If you were dead serious about the comparison, then I'm sorry that you're just a cunt. I actually thought better.

Edit: No, I still don't think that, but I was angry for a minute about it. I'm sorry, though I still disagree vehemently if you think they were the same thing. My mum is visiting and everyone is on edge.

 

[Chz]

I'll happily take an Official Warning for that if it will shut everyone up about meta-moderation.

 

[discokermit]

c bomb! lol! grow up.

 

[The39thStep]

You left out the fact that one side thought the agreement wouldn't be honored.

It doesn't matter what you concur with, unless they're going to call you up to take part in the negotiations?.



So we're down to oblique suggestions and appearing to tentatively agree - according to an essay from the American Enterprise Institute?

Thank you for your contribution.

 

[editor]

c bomb! lol! grow up.

You've been politely asked to take your complaint to the feedback forum. If you continue to disrupt this thread you will be warned again.

 

[TopCat]

It's because you dropped the c bomb and I had no wish to see the discussion sink even lower. It's quite clearly explained in the forum rules. If you wish to continue complaining, take it to the feedback forum.

Oh, and "we see you"?

You are not convincing anyone I would wager. Perhaps you go do a feedback thread on how even handed you believe yourself to be and not clog this one up.

 

[TopCat]

Bless. Now I get a warning. Beyond a joke

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Do they do popcorn and deckchairs on the beaches of Crimea?

 

[Rob Ray]

Bless. Now I get a warning. Beyond a joke

I mean, he said take it to the feedback forum or get a warning. What did you think would happen when you ignored him and carried on?

 

[TopCat]

I mean, he said take it to the feedback forum or get a warning. What did you think would happen when you ignored him and carried on

I thought it would be more of the usual bullshit.

 

[Pickman's model]

I thought it would be more of the usual bullshit.

more of the shame

 

[sleaterkinney]

Thank you for your contribution.

There we have it. I was going to say its bizarre the hoops people will jump through to pin this on nato, but it's actually just par for the course, isn't it?.

There was no agreement that was scuppered.

The fact that there was some agreement during discussions between Ukraine and Russia indicates that both parties were engaged in negotiation to see if or not a deal could be reached

No fact, was there?

 

[discokermit]

He told Zelensky that the UK would support Ukraine with financial aid, munitions, training and intelligence - but not with becoming party to the war

according to three luftwaffe officers we are very much party to the war, Germany accuses Russia of waging an ‘information war’ after alleged military leak

 

[discokermit]

There we have it. I was going to say its bizarre the hoops people will jump through to pin this on nato, but it's actually just par for the course, isn't it?.

There was no agreement that was scuppered.
No fact, was there?

that agreement will be much better than what they will end up with.

 

[Pickman's model]

There we have it. I was going to say its bizarre the hoops people will jump through to pin this on nato, but it's actually just par for the course, isn't it?.

There was no agreement that was scuppered.
No fact, was there?

what i think's proper bizarre are the great efforts posters will go to to exculpate the north atlantic treaty organisation from any blame direct or otherwise for the current disaster in ukraine

 

[Chz]

what i think's proper bizarre are the great efforts posters will go to to exculpate the north atlantic treaty organisation from any blame direct or otherwise for the current disaster in ukraine

Exactly so. If NATO had got off their arses and supplied every spare bit of kit to Ukraine from Day One we wouldn't be in this current mess and Russia would be back at their internationally agreed borders licking their wounds.

That's what you meant, right?

 

[The39thStep]

There we have it. I was going to say its bizarre the hoops people will jump through to pin this on nato, but it's actually just par for the course, isn't it?.

There was no agreement that was scuppered.
No fact, was there?

I doubt if an agreed set of minutes will be released tbh . I wouldn't want you to take this badly however I don't find that Fiona Hill ( you probably should google to see who she is) and the Ukraine Pravda are exactly let's pin the tail on the NATO donkey types. But there you go.

 

[Pickman's model]

Exactly so. If NATO had got off their arses and supplied every spare bit of kit to Ukraine from Day One we wouldn't be in this current mess and Russia would be back at their internationally agreed borders licking their wounds.

That's what you meant, right?

i was thinking more of the nato participation in the causes of the war. but the dispatch of 'every bit of spare kit to ukraine from day one' would have led to perhaps have led to an even worse situation now as that kit would have become needed by the dispatching countries as the war swiftly became more general.

 

[Chz]

i was thinking more of the nato participation in the causes of the war.

Yes, you're right. NATO should have sent more aid the first time (in the 21st century, at least) Russia invaded, stole their land, deported their citizens and banned their language and culture. And not waited for the sadly inevitable follow-up.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes, you're right. NATO should have sent more aid the first time (in the 21st century, at least) Russia invaded, stole their land, deported their citizens and banned their language and culture. And not waited for the sadly inevitable follow-up.

yeh you're not going back as far as you might. and your memory seems really poor today as you have clearly forgotten what was going on in 2014 - have you so soon forgotten the wars in afghanistan and iraq? do you really think there was the slack at the time in nato members' arsenals to whack everything to the ukrainians?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

according to three luftwaffe officers we are very much party to the war, Germany accuses Russia of waging an ‘information war’ after alleged military leak

German military communications using Webex, ffs.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Yes, you're right. NATO should have sent more aid the first time (in the 21st century, at least) Russia invaded, stole their land, deported their citizens and banned their language and culture. And not waited for the sadly inevitable follow-up.

If not at that moment, the day Russia murdered 298 people on MH17, that would have been a time to say, "Fuck this." - at the time Russia was pretending not to be invading, it was all down to the 'little green men' - so no nuclear retaliation threat and all this shit could have be avoided.

Maybe