Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-25

[Pickman's model]

That has got absolutely everything to do with the current resurgence of despotism, as I've said in more than one post.

sorry, i haven't been paying as much attention to your posts as they possibly deserve as they seem more rooted in a desire for urban fisticuffs than anything else

 

[Rimbaud]

I think that was for the home market, and a little bit for certain allies.

Could be.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Nothing to do with anything. As I said in another post, you get political ruptures (never, alas, led by anarchists), but the despots always come surging back.

This is pretty ahistorical, though. There are lots of different ways Russia could have gone post-Soviet Union. The ways it has and hasn't gone have been a result of a combination of internal and external influences. And the West needs to accept a large measure of the blame for the chaos of the 1990s, and the botched dismantling of the command economy, out of which Putin emerged as a Napoleon-like saviour.

 

[RD2003]

This is pretty ahistorical, though. There are lots of different ways Russia could have gone post-Soviet Union. The ways it has and hasn't gone have been a result of a combination of internal and external influences. And the West needs to accept a large measure of the blame for the chaos of the 1990s, and the botched dismantling of the command economy, out of which Putin emerged as a Napoleon-like saviour.

I know, I've said as much in an earlier post.

 

[bimble]

The content of his statement as it has been widely reported is sub-Trump levels of demented rubbish.

It does sound unhinged what he said there today.
Even if it was intended for a domestic audience why would you go as far as saying that the Ukrainian government is a gang of neoNazis and drug addicts? Seems a bit unnecessary. Where did the drug addicts bit even come from.

 

[cupid_stunt]

A small bonus for Ukraine - Russia will “partly limit” access to Facebook, Russia’s censorship agency has announced.

 

[dilute micro]

Firstly, Ukraine is not currently a member of NATO, for reasons which have been discussed here already.

But Lieven is saying that, even though the offer of NATO membership was made to Ukraine (and Georgia) in 2008, no plans, even the most basic, were ever made about how it would be defended in the event of a Russian invasion.

I'm no expert, but it strikes me that if you don't make a plan about how you might carry out such a defence, it doesn't indicate much in the way of willingness or ability to actually carry it out.

It appears that many of the actions of various western nations have contributed to enflaming the situation over the years, none of which, of course, excuses Putin's actions, culminating in the Russian invasion.

If you haven't already read the whole of that interview, I recommend you do so.

Yes I know they aren't members. My question was about after becoming members. So is it the normal protocol to draw up defense plans for aspiring countries? Or is Lieven making it sound exceptional that no plans were made? It seems bizarre that Ukraine and Georgia would be allowed to be attacked with the rest of NATO not coming to their defense.

 

[frogwoman]

A small bonus for Ukraine - Russia will “partly limit” access to Facebook, Russia’s censorship agency has announced.

I don't think this is a good thing at all sorry and you can bet that russian bots are still going to pump out disinformation. It's to do with his own citizens seeing negative news. To be honest fb is the only way I can keep in touch with a lot of my friends from there

 

[JimW]

Maybe, but it didn't stop the current incarnation of Russian despotism.

Then you had those theories that the mir was autonomy in embryo if the superstructure could be removed, which was only possible temporarily and locally in said historical conditions but again not the case any more - albeit technocrats like everywhere else are more likely than federations I grant you.
Hear arguments about China not being suited to self-government but situation was similar in that in fact people ran a lot of their own lives below an often loose state structure, and the Taiwanese experience shows that you can pass through the strongmen, party machine and Tamany hall style to get closer to not quite so bent representative type democracy with greatly reduced social violence.

 

[TopCat]

It seems that there are at least a few British volunteers among the Ukrainian forces.


Good on them.

Fucking idiots.

 

[RD2003]

Then you had those theories that the mir was autonomy in embryo if the superstructure could be removed, which was only possible temporarily and locally in said historical conditions but again not the case any more - albeit technocrats like everywhere else are more likely than federations I grant you.
Hear arguments about China not being suited to self-government but situation was similar in that in fact people ran a lot of their own lives below an often loose state structure, and the Taiwanese experience shows that you can pass through the strongmen, party machine and Tamany hall style to get closer to not quite so bent representative type democracy with greatly reduced social violence.

In the case of Russia, we'll see where we are in 20, 30, 40 years time (well some fuckers will anyway.) Although I doubt if many of todays representative democracies will continue to function as such once the intertwining crises that lie ahead start to bite.

 

[Raheem]

This is pretty ahistorical, though. There are lots of different ways Russia could have gone post-Soviet Union. The ways it has and hasn't gone have been a result of a combination of internal and external influences. And the West needs to accept a large measure of the blame for the chaos of the 1990s, and the botched dismantling of the command economy, out of which Putin emerged as a Napoleon-like saviour.

None of this is wrong, but Putin's personal ambition to become dictator for life is also an important part of the story. It's not something that was thrust upon him, nor was it just the inevitable unfolding of history.

 

[Artaxerxes]

God I wish we could declare war on Eurovision

 

[elbows]

Putin calling on Ukrainian army to overthrow the government does lend some credence to the theory that he's ODed on his own propaganda.

Its entirely typical war stuff. America did the same thing when going into Iraq, although in that case it seems they thought they had a deal with some higher ups in Iraq to get a big chunk of the Iraqi army to leave the battle. One version of events suggests that the deal didnt go quite according to plan, leading to delays in completing the invasion.

 

[Aladdin]

Not any more. Take that Putin!

Its like tickling Putin into submission .

Worth a try

 

[Pickman's model]

This is pretty ahistorical, though. There are lots of different ways Russia could have gone post-Soviet Union. The ways it has and hasn't gone have been a result of a combination of internal and external influences. And the West needs to accept a large measure of the blame for the chaos of the 1990s, and the botched dismantling of the command economy, out of which Putin emerged as a Napoleon-like saviour.

he's lasted longer than napoleon and so far invaded fewer countries. but still time for him to move to st helena.

 

[Raheem]

God I wish we could declare war on Eurovision

Stand for parliament.

 

[JimW]

In the case of Russia, we'll see where we are in 20, 30, 40 years time (well some fuckers will anyway.) Although I doubt if many of todays representative democracies will continue to function as such once the intertwining crises that lie ahead start to bite.

Well, I do share your doubts that representative democracy is a resilient as a lot of people think so I'll not argue with you on that score.

 

[elbows]

It does sound unhinged what he said there today.
Even if it was intended for a domestic audience why would you go as far as saying that the Ukrainian government is a gang of neoNazis and drug addicts? Seems a bit unnecessary. Where did the drug addicts bit even come from.

The neo-Nazi line is part of longstanding propaganda narratives from Russia in regards the Ukraine leadership.

Propaganda featuring claims about drug addicts has also been glimpsed before in other contexts - Gaddafi and his son came out with a lot of stuff blaming kids on drugs when giving speeches in the weeks leading up to their regime being overthrown. We took the piss out of it at the time.

 

[skyscraper101]

Its like tickling Putin into submission .

Worth a try

Oh how he'll miss seeing his nation compete in the annual festival of camp Europop and Graham Norton's wit.

 

[dilute micro]

God I wish we could declare war on Eurovision

Good things have come from Eurovision.

 

[cupid_stunt]

I don't think this is a good thing at all sorry and you can bet that russian bots are still going to pump out disinformation. It's to do with his own citizens seeing negative news. To be honest fb is the only way I can keep in touch with a lot of my friends from there

I thought is it was clear that I wasn't being that serious, but I am surprised they are only going to “partly limit” access to FB, in fact I am surprised they haven't cut the internet off completely. together with the phone networks, that's sort of expected in situations like this, so that's the bonus.

 

[existentialist]

i wouldn't be surprised if the rationale behind that was about vehicle borne improvised explosive devices, or car bombs for short.

It's a good idea. The tops and bottoms of tanks are usually the least well armoured. Remote control vehicle with a dummy and a shaped charge in the driver's seat, "Hello, T72! -BOOM"

 

[frogwoman]

I thought is it was clear that I wasn't being that serious, but I am surprised they are only to “partly limit” access to FB, in fact I am surprised they haven't cut the internet off completely. together with the phone networks, that's sort of expected in situations like this.

They can't, everything is done on the internet. I had to access sites that are banned in Russia for my MA and it still worked. Also when I was there they banned Telegram and they couldn't do it , people could still get on the app but Google and other important websites were down for a day or two and it caused chaos.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's a good idea. The tops and bottoms of tanks are usually the least well armoured. Remote control vehicle with a dummy and a shaped charge in the driver's seat, "Hello, T72! -BOOM"

yeh but you do get military vehicles, eg the american mrap, which have extra armour to prevent just such a thing. i suspect this wasn't a 'let's kill a ukrainian civilian' but 'let's get rid of a threat'

 

[Serge Forward]

God I wish we could declare war on Eurovision

I fucking love Eurovision! Hands off our song contest

 

[elbows]

The tank running over the car stuff is grim. Does anybody know where in Ukraine it happened?

It reminded me of horrible images we saw in Libya where there were a bunch of cars which had clearly been squashed by tanks

 

[elbows]

yeh but you do get military vehicles, eg the american mrap, which have extra armour to prevent just such a thing. i suspect this wasn't a 'let's kill a ukrainian civilian' but 'let's get rid of a threat'

Yeah a bloody horrible vehicular version of shoot first, ask questions later.

 

[TopCat]

 

[cupid_stunt]

They can't, everything is done on the internet. I had to access sites that are banned in Russia for my MA and it still worked. Also when I was there they banned Telegram and they couldn't do it , people could still get on the app but Google and other important websites were down for a day or two and it caused chaos.

They can, if they closedown the landline & mobile networks, there would be no internet.