Ukip - why are they gaining support?

[treelover]

The tories are probably sat back chuckling while the fallout from the UKIP 'success' lands on Clegg and to a lesser extent Miliband, despite the fact they should be the ones needing a nappy change. Have they had any hand in creating the narrative of 'Turmoil' in the other parties? It'll conceivably benefit them, although a weak LD party probably helps Labour.

Yes, its strange how the Tories are not described as 'having had huge losses' in the election, which they did, etc, all the hate and media attention is on L/D's and UKIP

 

[Mr Moose]

The point though, is that it's not something i've ever endorsed or suggested! It's total fantasy from andys massive brain. I've argued the exact opposite in great detail over many many years. This is why this stuff is laughable and not worth the time to respond to if he gets basic positions totally back to front.

I'm getting confused. Not a new feeling.

 

[butchersapron]

I'm getting confused. Not a new feeling.

Andy has concocted a position from either genuine misunderstanding or twisted malevolence and presented it as mine. You took him at his word (why wouldn't you?) and responded as if that position was mine. But it's not. My position is the opposite - as people (apart from andy) who regularly read/post in the P&P forums would be able to tell you.

 

[Dogsauce]

Yes, its strange how the Tories are not described as 'having huge losses' in the election, which they did, etc, all the hate and media attention is on L/D's and UKIP

I think it was expected the tories would lose quite a bit of support, so maybe it's not a story in that sense, but there should be some concern, and it would be as easy to find some malcontent calling for the leader's head as it would be in any other party (hint: there's always someone available to provide the needed quote, even if just a 'candidate' and not MP). Maybe they're not dancing like a puppet on Farage's string like Miliband appears to now be doing.

 

[ViolentPanda]

UKIP (a right wing nationalist party) are gaining support... and regardless of how or why, it is a fucking awful situation; not limited to Britain it seems, because the French have also voted up their FN party.

Cameron seems committed to "sorting out" Europe prior to a referendum and the son of Ralph the Trotskyist is more concerned about "sorting out" his alfresco eating habits than getting his arse into gear.

The UK is fucked.

So we should weep and wail and facepalm, rather than asking "why is nationalism apparently resurgent across much of the EU"?

 

[butchersapron]

I wonder what Andy would have said about the Paris Commune. A nationalist movement centred around anti-German chauvinism maybe?

I think we may need a handy check-list.

 

[Pickman's model]

I wonder what Andy would have said about the Paris Commune. A nationalist movement centred around anti-German chauvinism maybe?

and filled with anti-social arsonists. not to mention people not kindly disposed towards priests.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think we may need a handy check-list.

an andy to zzz.

 

[ViolentPanda]

If we're talking about disaffection with the status quo and making comparisons with history, 1933 Germany is the most pertinent, no?

No. The Nazi dictatorship came about not due to electoral politics, but because of political scheming by von Papen et al. The Nazis did not have a majority.

The fact that many workers in 1917 Russia were religious, reactionary and bigotted is irrelevant. They did not mass themselves behind a movement that made a direct appeal to those feelings.

There are points of difference, of course - the Nazis found support among the wealthy in a way that UKIP have not. But there are also points of similarity, primarily in the way that the Nazis first built their support in small rural towns, not in the cities. This article outlines the demographic of Nazi support.

The profound difference being that UKIP has done well in the urban areas too. The NSDAP only ever had limited success in the regional cities and even less in either of the capitals of the era (Weimar and Berlin). Their rural support was also mostly from the rural petit bourgeoisie and small landowners, rather than the rural working classes.

I am not suggesting that we should be worried about a UKIP takeover of the system. However, it is simplistic in the extreme to simply say: 'These people are rejecting the status quo. I reject the status quo, therefore I am glad these people reject the status quo, too.' If that which they choose over the status quo is right-wing, reactionary and xenophobic, this does not help your cause if you are none of these things. It just makes matters even worse.

There's an assumption that because people have voted for UKIP in the Euros and the locals, that'll they'll obviously do so in a General Election, and yet history shows us that good Euro and local results, while a factor, aren't a great bellwether of G.E. results.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I wonder what Andy would have said about the Paris Commune. A nationalist movement centred around anti-German chauvinism maybe?

A lecture about how Proudhon was an inveterate anti-Semite, perhaps?

 

[DotCommunist]

history shows us that good Euro and local results, while a factor, aren't a great bellwether of G.E. results.

might be something of a feedback loop on this one- those who were just turning in a tory protest vote being encouraged enough by the win to consider them seriously as GE candidates.

 

[JTG]

Anyway, the tories were going to take all those sw lib-tory marginals anyway

Yep, Yeovil only safe LD seat in the region

 

[butchersapron]

might be something of a feedback loop on this one- those who were just turning in a tory protest vote being encouraged enough by the win to consider them seriously as GE candidates.

The ashcroft poll and the british election survey have both found 50%+ stickability.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The profound difference being that UKIP has done well in the urban areas too. .

UKIP did far less well in most large urban areas.

 

[brogdale]

I am not suggesting that we should be worried about a UKIP takeover of the system. However, it is simplistic in the extreme to simply say: 'These people are rejecting the status quo. I reject the status quo, therefore I am glad these people reject the status quo, too.' If that which they choose over the status quo is right-wing, reactionary and xenophobic, this does not help your cause if you are none of these things. It just makes matters even worse.

The powers represented by UKIP already have the system; there is no need or intention for a 'takeover'. UKIP do not reject the status quo, they merely seek to effect an adjustment to the structural relationship between capital's economy and polity. They appear to be doing so by effectively exploiting the normative conflicts between commodified capital and polity's distinctive ontology enhanced by the crisis in finance capital. They are utilising the very notions of political democracy, public autonomy and collective determination that ensure the legal framework underpinning market exchange to undermine the Euro supra-national edifice. Their success in harnessing populist nationalism and disaffection is an interesting political phenomena, and one that those seeking to challenge capital might learn from?

 

[butchersapron]

The powers represented by UKIP already have the system; there is no need or intention for a 'takeover'. UKIP do not reject the status quo, they merely seek to effect an adjustment to the structural relationship between capital's economy and polity. They appear to be doing so by effectively exploiting the normative conflicts between commodified capital and polity's distinctive ontology enhanced by the crisis in finance capital. They are utilising the very notions of political democracy, public autonomy and collective determination that ensure the legal framework underpinning market exchange to undermine the Euro supra-national edifice. Their success in harnessing populist nationalism and disaffection is an interesting political phenomena, and one that those seeking to challenge capital might learn from?

Oh i see, you're one of those types that love war an death aren't you?

 

[Hocus Eye.]

Before we start to worry about UKIP chances in the GE those just elected now have a year of being local councillors. Lets see how they get on with mundane problems like street lighting and refuse collecting. Not much chance of grandstanding there.

 

[brogdale]

Oh i see, you're one of those types that love war an death aren't you?

Rainy day

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The powers represented by UKIP already have the system; there is no need or intention for a 'takeover'. UKIP do not reject the status quo, they merely seek to effect an adjustment to the structural relationship between capital's economy and polity. They appear to be doing so by effectively exploiting the normative conflicts between commodified capital and polity's distinctive ontology enhanced by the crisis in finance capital. They are utilising the very notions of political democracy, public autonomy and collective determination that ensure the legal framework underpinning market exchange to undermine the Euro supra-national edifice. Their success in harnessing populist nationalism and disaffection is an interesting political phenomena, and one that those seeking to challenge capital might learn from?

I did not suggest that there was an intention for a takeover. Where I was talking about rejection of the status quo, to whatever extent it has happened, I was talking about UKIP voters rather than UKIP itself.

 

[brogdale]

I did not suggest that there was an intention for a takeover. Where I was talking about rejection of the status quo, to whatever extent it has happened, I was talking about UKIP voters rather than UKIP itself.

Yes, but the fact that they perceive their actions as challenging the status quo is significant.

 

[killer b]

UKIP did far less well in most large urban areas.

'less well' does not = badly

They didn't get a single council seat here, but were polling respectably wherever they stood - I've seen people gloating round here about how we're obviously too educated to elect a UKIP councillor, but little recognition of how well they've actually done (then much breathlessness over the euros).

 

[butchersapron]

'less well' does not = badly

They didn't get a single council seat here, but were polling respectably wherever they stood - I've seen people gloating round here about how we're obviously too educated to elect a UKIP councillor, but little recognition of how well they've actually done (then much breathlessness over the euros).

They took 27% across bristol - a labour councilor has just called UKIP voters "thick and ignorant". I reckon there are urban areas outside of brilliant super london. Some posters may have heard of them.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

'less well' does not = badly
.

True. And you can say the same about the Nazis.

 

[killer b]

shut up about the fucking nazis.

 

[butchersapron]

Amazing stuff - yesterday UKIP wasn't gaining support at all. Today it's 1933.

 

[DotCommunist]

Rainy day

you lost me at ontology

 

[littlebabyjesus]

shut up about the fucking nazis.

Maybe others should shut up about the fucking Russians, then. If historical comparisons and parallels are being drawn, this is better than most given the areas the support is drawn from.

 

[butchersapron]

Weimar - revolution-->defeat in war-->civil war-->attempted revolutions-->foreign invasion--> militias with members in the millions-->thousand of deaths from political street fighting--> mass active parties with members in millions.

UK 2014--> UKIP get 27% in the euros.

 

[Pickman's model]

True. And you can say the same about the Nazis.

 

[butchersapron]

Maybe others should shut up about the fucking Russians, then. If historical comparisons and parallels are being drawn, this is better than most given the areas the support is drawn from.

And this would be this bit:

Watch the spluttering outrage - are you really comparing UKIP voters with *** (no, i'm not) - drown out the wider point.

bang on time.