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UK courtroom to hear evidence against the official narrative of 9/11

Passover is coming up and I knew I shouldn't have left the nanothermite buying until the last minute, i'm meant to be going to a passover meal and I won't have anything to carry out a controlled demolition of his house, or on the way there for that matter.
 
Random said:
My guess is that, even if it's not promoted, conspiracy nonsense in the US gets an easier ride from the authorities, doesn't get repressed like leftism or black power groups, since it's not seen as a political threat.
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Of course it's not repressed - why on earth would it need repression? Repression costs resources - it can simply be monitored and left alone - hence why there are fathoms of the stuff coming out everywhere on all sorts of topics - particularly where personal alienation strikes hard - criticism of conventional medicine (alienation from capitalist medicine, health pressures of capitalist training and work), criticism of banking (financial firms in a non-regulated system), criticism of fertiliser agriculture sometimes extended as 'chem-trails' (increasing food prices at the same time as better, more sophisticated technology).
Capitalism creates conspiracy theories, if corporations and states wanted to end CTs (not talking about batcake lunacy Holocaust denial types) all they need to do is open up all their behaviour explicity - but they can't, so they don't and the cycle continues.

In countries where there is one state bank you don't get so many or as much as credence to CTs that say banking is the source of all problems, instead the stuff is about secret influence of particular minorities etc dominates.
 
frogwoman said:
Shamir's a filthy blood libel promoting cunt.
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Annoyingly, otherwise solid Counterpunch still publish his stuff including this bizarre defence of the Orthodox church and attack on PussyRiot:

A radical charismatic opposition leader, the poet Eduard Limonov wrote that the opposition made a mistake supporting PR, as they antagonise the masses; the chasm between the masses and the opposition grows. But his voice was crying in the wilderness, and the rest of the opposition happily embraced the PR cause, trying to turn it into a weapon against Putin.
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The Limonov quoted there positively is a far-right Nat-Bol, Captain Hurrah and other Russia watchers would know. Shamir is telling the Russian opposition why don't you listen to Limonov and stop protesting against Putin for the treatment and sentencing of the trio.
 
sihhi said:
Annoyingly, otherwise solid Counterpunch still publish his stuff including this bizarre defence of the Orthodox church and attack on PussyRiot:



The Limonov quoted there positively is a far-right Nat-Bol, Captain Hurrah and other Russia watchers would know. Shamir is telling the Russian opposition why don't you listen to Limonov and stop protesting against Putin for the treatment and sentencing of the trio.
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you reckon? sadly that doesn't surprise me about counterpunch, they often seem to print "anti-imperialist" stuff which is a bit one sided to say the least. IIRC they also printed Diana Johnstone's stuff about Serbia and Albania although I could be wrong.

They do sometimes print interesting and good articles though.
 
frogwoman said:
you reckon? sadly that doesn't surprise me about counterpunch, they often seem to print "anti-imperialist" stuff which is a bit one sided to say the least. IIRC they also printed Diana Johnstone's stuff about Serbia and Albania although I could be wrong.

They do sometimes print interesting and good articles though.
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Perhaps you're right Counterpunch is degenerating - its stuff on immigration and I'd forgotten all about the Iran Ahmedinejad stuff, can't remember the Albania stuff - what were the claims?
 
That the Srebrenica massacre was exaggerated and the use of rape in the bosnian conflict was largely a myth among other things, shes also alleged to be a long standing friend of slobodan milosevic's wife. I am no great fan of the way that the Serbs have been demonised over the conflict but for fucks sake:

Most journalists and historians have argued that Johnstone, in her 2003 book, also expresses doubts over the use of systematic rape in the war in Bosnia and the number of victims of rape, the authenticity of the Racak massacre in Kosovo, and the true figure of Bosnian war dead. The author itself affirms that these writers "reduce [her] book, as they reduce the Balkan conflict itself, to a certain number of notorious atrocities, and stigmatise whatever deviates from their own dualistic interpretation". Johnstone asserts that Fools' Crusade is "a documented analysis of the historical background and the political context of the wars of Yugoslavian disintegration."[7]
 
sihhi said:
Are you saying that's good or bad?
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I think it's obviously biased and it's an example of their frequently printing stuff that conforms to "anti-imperialist" views rather than necessarily examining the facts, her stuff about zionism and le pen is also a bit dodgy.
 
http://www.counterpunch.org/2010/12/15/holbrooke-or-milosevic-who-is-the-greater-murderer/ theres also this:

Holbrooke and Milosevic were born in the same year, 1941. When Milosevic died in 2006, Holbrooke gave a long statement to the BBC without a single syllable of human kindness. "This man wrecked the Balkans," said Holbrooke.
"He was a war criminal who caused four wars, over 300,000 deaths, 2.5million homeless. Sometimes monsters make the biggest impacts on history – Hitler and Stalin – and such is the case with this gentleman."
Holbrooke presented himself as goodness dealing with evil for a worthy cause. When negotiating with Milosevic, "you’re conscious of the fact that you’re sitting across the table from a monster whose role in history will be terrible and who has caused so many deaths."
Who was the monster? Nobody, including at the Hague tribunal where he died for lack of medical treatment, has ever actually proved that Milosevic was responsible for the tragic deaths in the wars of Yugoslav disintegration. But Holbrooke was never put on trial for all the deaths in Vietnam, East Timor, Afghanistan, Iraq and, yes, former Yugoslavia, which resulted at least in part from the U.S. policies he carried out.
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yes holbrooke is a cunt and yes the balkans war and our involvement was completely fucked but the article makes it sound as though milosevic, and not the people who's lives he and the other politicians ruined, (including the US/UK's) was the real victim in this.

In reality, there has never been any proof that Milosevic sought or obtained wealth for himself, whereas Holbrooke was, among many other things, a vice chairman of Credit Suisse First Boston, managing director of Lehman Brothers, vice chairman of the private equity firm Perseus LLC, and a member of the board of directors of AIG, the American International Group, at a time when, according to Wikipedia, "the firm engaged in wildly speculative credit default insurance schemes that may cost the taxpayer hundreds of billions to prevent AIG from bringing down the entire financial system."

Milosevic was on trial for years without ever being to present his defense before he died under troubling circumstances. Holbrooke found that outcome perfectly satisfying: "I knew as soon as he reached The Hague that he’d never see daylight again and I think that justice was served in a weird way because he died in his cell, and that was the right thing to do."
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eta There's this as well full of serbian nationalist rhetoric which borders at times on out and out racism:

http://www.counterpunch.org/2010/09/17/serbia-surrenders-kosovo-to-the-eu/

United States policy toward the region has been heavily influenced by ethnic lobbies that have pledged allegiance to Washington in return for unconditional support of their nationalist aims. This is particularly the case of the rag-tag Albanian lobby in the United States, an odd mixture of dull-witted politicians and gun-running pizza parlor owners who flattered the Clinton administration into promising them their own statelet carved out of historic Serbia. The result has been “independent” Kosovo, in reality occupied by a major US military base, Camp Bondsteel, NATO-commanded pacifiers and an EU mission theoretically trying to introduce a modicum of legal order into what amounts to a failing state run by clans and living off various criminal activities. Since Camp Bondsteel is untouchable, and the grateful hoodlums have erected a giant statue to their hero, Bill Clinton, in their capital, Pristina, Washington is content with this situation.
But many in Europe are not. It is Europe, not the United States, that has to deal with violent Kosovo gangsters peddling dope and women in its cities. It is Europe, not the United States, that has this mess on its doorstep.
The media continue to peddle the 1999 fairy tale in which heroic NATO rescued the defenseless “Kosovars” from a hypothetical “genocide” (which never took place and never would have taken place), but European governments are in a position to know better.
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I know that the Serbian atrocities in Kosovo were heavily exaggerated and anti-serb atrocities by the KLA and by the Tudjman regime largely ignored bythe west and by the ICTY tribunal but is this shit really acceptable, to conflate the idea of albanian gangsters and kosovo and basically deny that atrocities took place under milosevic's regime?

On October 5, 2000, the regular presidential election process in Yugoslavia was boisterously interrupted by what the West described as a “democratic revolution” against the “dictator”, president Slobodan Milosevic. In reality, the “dictator” was about to enter the run-off round of the Yugoslav presidential election in which he seemed likely to lose to the main opposition candidate, Vojislav Kostunica. But the United States trained and incited the athletically inclined youth organization, Otpor (“resistance”), to take to the streets and set fire to the parliament in front of international television, to give the impression of a popular uprising. Probably, the scenarists modeled this show on the equally stage-managed overthrow of the Ceaucescu couple in Rumania at Christmas 1989, which ended in their murder following one of the shortest kangaroo court trials in history.

For the generally ignorant world at large, being overthrown would be proof that Milosevic was really a “dictator” like Ceaucescu, whereas being defeated in an election would have tended to prove the opposite.
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i know a bit about romania and the ceaucescu regime - it wasn't started by the west (although elements of the romanian opposition were probably supported by the west), it began as a popular uprising by, among others, striking miners and spread over the next few weeks to other parts of the country. Ceaucescu was at one point courted by the British and American governments during a period when he was becoming more critical of the USSR. How is it possible for a left leaning magazine to print such stuff uncritically?
 
She is of a conspiracist approach and the eagerness to defend Le Pen sickening, but it's not impossible that her investigations might have merit. The evidence for Bosnian nationalist inflation of numbers of rapes by Serb soldiers is there, it's not just conjured from nothing - it's a key tactic in mobilising funds from the Middle East and securing diplomatic support from the West.
Azerbaijan tries it on for its Muslim support base in its war with Armenia at around the same time - few in the West remember much of this war, or the claims made, but the figures of rapes of Bosnians are used as totemic banners. I don't have Diana Johnstone's book, and I haven't read the detailed refutations of it, so I can't wholly judge.
 
Oh yeah sihhi a lot of it was definitely exaggerated and the NATO bombing/intervention into Serbia was fucking disgusting when you consider how they turned a blind eye to anti-serb atrocities, but maybe I'm just being sensitive or whatever but it seems to me that from what she's writing there's a lot of her stuff that's pretty borderline.
 
frogwoman said:
I know that the Serbian atrocities in Kosovo were heavily exaggerated and anti-serb atrocities by the KLA and by the Tudjman regime largely ignored bythe west and by the ICTY tribunal but is this shit really acceptable, to conflate the idea of albanian gangsters and kosovo and basically deny that atrocities took place under milosevic's regime?

i know a bit about romania and the ceaucescu regime - it wasn't started by the west, it began as a popular uprising by, among others, striking miners and spread over the next few weeks to other parts of the country. How is it possible for a left leaning magazine to print such stuff uncritically?
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No, it's not acceptable. Not sure how I've missed them/it from my radar.

It uses elements of truth there are Albanian ex-KLA networks still operating, and there are Kosovars here who will say they prefer being in London than ever returning home however bad it gets because the criminals run the new country to produce a dangerous/absurd conclusion based on Europe needing to "deal with violent Kosovo gangsters peddling dope and women in its cities".
 
aye but it's quite similar to a lot of serb nationalist stuff which basically equates the whole of kosovo's albanian population to gangsters (her using stuff like "grateful hoodlums" etc) says that the population growth of the albanian population was a deliberate plot to "outbreed" the serb population and that most of them arrived from albania in the 70s whereas most were descended from people who had been there for centuries, a bit like zionist arguments about how "there are no palestinians".

I agree with you though. the whole "independence" of kosovo was majorly fucked up and the new regime is basically riddled with criminality, serbs and gypsies are heavily discriminated against (not forgetting that camp bondsteel site), I just don't think that criticising that means we should necessarily side with the likes of her.
 
frogwoman said:
aye but it's quite similar to a lot of serb nationalist stuff which basically equates the whole of kosovo's albanian population to gangsters (her using stuff like "grateful hoodlums" etc) says that the population growth of the albanian population was a deliberate plot to "outbreed" the serb population and that most of them arrived from albania in the 70s whereas most were descended from people who had been there for centuries, a bit like zionist arguments about how "there are no palestinians".

I agree with you though. the whole "independence" of kosovo was majorly fucked up and the new regime is basically riddled with criminality, serbs and gypsies are heavily discriminated against (not forgetting that camp bondsteel site), I just don't think that criticising that means we should necessarily side with the likes of her.
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No of course not, I sort off remember the Johnstone controversy ages ago in 2003-2004 at the ten year anniversary, but the later stuff now is just vile.

By the way, are you following the ongoing saga of the Kosovo organ harvesting trial? It also features Moldovan victims. The former Kosovo Prime MInister is heavily implicated.
 
sihhi said:
No of course not, I sort off remember the Johnstone controversy ages ago in 2003-2004 at the ten year anniversary, but the later stuff now is just vile.

By the way, are you following the ongoing saga of the Kosovo organ harvesting trial? It also features Moldovan victims. The former Kosovo Prime MInister is heavily implicated.
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I haven't been following it, no, although I did a little bit when the story broke and when my views on this stuff were a bit different to they are today, i used to be a bit of an "anti-imperialist" myself when it came to this stuff.

It seems almost, unbelievable too horrible to be true although a lot of awful shit occurred with all sides during that war. :(
 
frogwoman said:
I haven't been following it, no, although I did a little bit when the story broke and when my views on this stuff were a bit different to they are today, i used to be a bit of an "anti-imperialist" myself when it came to this stuff.

It seems almost, unbelievable too horrible to be true although a lot of awful shit occurred with all sides during that war. :(
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The latest stuff just news googling is that it carried on up to 2008-2009 with the Ministry of Health giving a surgeon a permit for a new clinic even after he had been struck for unnecessary operations. :facepalm:

There's an interview with the EU prosecutor who happens to be Canadian on CBC here.

"It all began in 2008 when a young Turkish man collapsed at the Pristina Airport. He told authorities that someone had stolen his kidney. He led police to the Medicus clinic. Police now believe the clinic to be the hub of an organ trafficking ring. Seven people are standing trial, including a former government health official. They're accused of luring impoverished Russians, Moldovans and Turks to sell their kidneys with promises of big cash pay outs. Authorities say the promises were false. But there is lots of cash involved. The police believe the clinic received up to $200,000 per operation from foreigners willing to pay for a new organ."
 
sihhi said:
The latest stuff just news googling is that it carried on up to 2008-2009 with the Ministry of Health giving a surgeon a permit for a new clinic even after he had been struck for unnecessary operations. :facepalm:

There's an interview with the EU prosecutor who happens to be Canadian on CBC here.

"It all began in 2008 when a young Turkish man collapsed at the Pristina Airport. He told authorities that someone had stolen his kidney. He led police to the Medicus clinic. Police now believe the clinic to be the hub of an organ trafficking ring. Seven people are standing trial, including a former government health official. They're accused of luring impoverished Russians, Moldovans and Turks to sell their kidneys with promises of big cash pay outs. Authorities say the promises were false. But there is lots of cash involved. The police believe the clinic received up to $200,000 per operation from foreigners willing to pay for a new organ."
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:(
 
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