Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[Sue]

It's worth remembering in the context of this thread - where transphobia is repeatedly framed as "women asking questions" or alternatively as an issue of conflicts between lesbians and trans people - that transphobia as a wider social phenomenon is primarily associated with (cis) straight men.

That is obvious enough when it comes to incidents of physical assault or murders. But its also true in the broadest sense: every survey, both in the US and in the UK, reveals that cis women are notably less transphobic than cis men. They are more likely to believe that discrimination against trans people is wrong, more accepting of trans people's right to be treated as their preferred gender and less likely to feel uncomfortable with trans people using the same bathrooms. This should hardly be surprising. In the anglophone parts of the West, women are on average both more progressive on social issues and more generally left wing than men (this wasn't always the case but has been for some time now).

According to the annual British survey of social attitudes, only 13% of women feel uncomfortable sharing public bathrooms with trans women (of whom only 4% feel very uncomfortable). These numbers broadly come from the category of hardline social conservatives, e.g. women who are against gay rights, against sex before marriage etc. Transphobic "gender critical feminists" are not remotely representative of women or even of the transphobic minority of women. Neither are they remotely representative of lesbians - younger queer women in particular tend to be the most radically pro-trans people segment of the non trans population.

The gift of the TERF fringe to the discourse about trans people in Britain has been to help obscure the core issues at stake and to provide allegedly pro-woman arguments for the use of social conservatives. In countries where that fringe has no media footprint, the argument is almost always framed as social progressives versus reactionary social conservatives, a framing which much more accurately reflects actual underlying social attitudes and conflicts.

Not sure I understand the bit I've put in bold. Are you saying that women asking questions is automatically transphobic? Or do you mean women use asking questions as a cover for being transphobic? And how can you tell the difference?

And might this mean women won't ask questions due to this assumption that to do so is transphobic? Finding this all kind of confusing.

 

[Wilf]

If feminist Linda Bellos is seen as a risk, progressive politics has lost its way | Claire Heuchan

One of the things most depressing about this - the underlying debate, not the article - is that victory is mapped out as a series of de-invited student union speakers and changes in university admission policies. Not unheard of for the left to play out its spats in universities, plus I actually work at one. But still, it's depressing.

 

[purenarcotic]

If feminist Linda Bellos is seen as a risk, progressive politics has lost its way | Claire Heuchan






I have chosen these part specifically because I am interested in reading more about the seeming tension between some lesbian feminists and transwomen having a greater profile and inclusion. What is it exactly that TA's are advocating that LF's find particularly threatening? Has anyone read anything recently that goes into this a little more deeply?

We’re being told not wanting to sleep with someone with a penis makes us transphobic. No it doesn’t - we all have the right to sleep or not sleep with whoever we want, it’s our body not someone else’s. If I wanted cock I would sleep with someone who had one. I don’t. I like women with vaginas. I couldn’t care less if someone wants to sleep with a trans woman who has a penis, I’d like the same respect back.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Why is it a shock the attitudes of the Reclaim The Night mob? They are a honey pot for the bonkers Bruno wing of the Womens movement. Lily attending their jaunt and shout was hugely provokotive.

Yeah I think there is some game playing going on with both sides - the bookfair leafleters must have known that it would kick off too.

Ditto the loons on both sides who insist on calling transwomen men at every opportunity vs baiting lesbians by going on about how they have to like trans penises or whatever it is.

 

[Treacle Toes]

That lesbians who don’t want dick are transphobic

Can you say more on this? Lesbians not wanting dick is obvious surely? Is not wanting dick transphobic? Doesn't that smack of the idea that all lesbians are man haters? Perhaps you were being sarcastic.

 

[purenarcotic]

Can you say more on this? Lesbians not wanting dick is obvious surely? Is not wanting dick transphobic? Doesn't that smack of the idea that all lesbians are man haters? Perhaps you were being sarcastic.

The argument being if trans women are women then lesbians should accept that some women have penis so we should sleep with those women and to not is transphobic.

 

[8ball]

The argument being if trans women are women then lesbians should accept that some women have penis so we should sleep with those women and to not is transphobic.

That’s a pretty barking argument.

 

[purenarcotic]

That’s a pretty barking argument.

I agree.

 

[co-op]

That’s a pretty barking argument.

And some would say you’re a transphobe for saying that.

 

[mojo pixy]

What about a trans woman without a penis? Would it be transphobic for a straight man or gay woman to not want sex with that person? I mean assuming there's been some attraction, flirting etc. Then it becomes clear this woman is a trans woman. Would it be transphobic to say no, at that point, because this woman is trans (and despite the initially expressed attraction)?

 

[Sue]

The more this thread goes on, the less I seem to understand.

 

[8ball]

And some would say you’re a transphobe for saying that.

I’m too old to be bothered about being called things. The logic of that argument does rather seem a bit like me saying any woman who doesn’t want to shag me is a misandrist.

 

[Sue]

I’m too old to be bothered about being called things. The logic of that argument does rather seem a bit like me saying any woman who doesn’t want to shag me is a misandrist.

Or a lesbian obvs.

 

[Pickman's model]

I’m too old to be bothered about being called things. The logic of that argument does rather seem a bit like me saying any woman who doesn’t want to shag me is a misandrist.

Let's hope the likes of Gromit don't take that up

 

[8ball]

Or a lesbian obvs.

Indeed.

 

[purenarcotic]

Let's hope the likes of Gromit don't take that up

Let’s hope Gromit takes none of this up or heaven help us all.

 

[NoXion]

Why is it a shock the attitudes of the Reclaim The Night mob? They are a honey pot for the bonkers Bruno wing of the Womens movement. Lily attending their jaunt and shout was hugely provokotive.

What's the Bruno wing?

 

[smokedout]

Why is it a shock the attitudes of the Reclaim The Night mob? They are a honey pot for the bonkers Bruno wing of the Womens movement. Lily attending their jaunt and shout was hugely provokotive.

Possibly a shock because on their website they say this:

All women are welcome at Reclaim the Night, including: women of all colours and cultures, of all religions or none, women of any age, disabled and non-disabled women, heterosexual women, lesbians, trans women, bisexual women, refugee and asylum-seeking women and any other women you can think of! We would love to see you all there. Bring along your mothers, grandmothers, sisters, aunts, nieces, and daughters.

 

[smokedout]

We’re being told not wanting to sleep with someone with a penis makes us transphobic.

Who is telling you that? All transgender people, all trans activists, or a handful of obscure youtubers or people on twitter who have seen a far greater degree of prominence then they would ordinarily because some people have used their views as an attempt to smear all transwomen as sexually aggresive men?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Indeed.

Which is all covered by not being fanciable to them. Which is how relationships work. Or don’t, as the case may be.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Possibly a shock because on their website they say this:

So instead of making the argument with the organisers, the likes of Long take it upon themselves to act as guardians of the march in direct contravention of the stated position of the organisers? And label others 'psychologically colonised' for not agreeing with her. It's breathtakingly arrogant. If she made the argument with the organisers, she clearly lost it.

These twitter spats are very strange. It is hard to tell the difference between the petulant teenagers and the petulant middle-aged academics.

 

[purenarcotic]

Who is telling you that? All transgender people, all trans activists, or a handful of obscure youtubers or people on twitter who have seen a far greater degree of prominence then they would ordinarily because some people have used their views as an attempt to smear all transwomen as sexually aggresive men?

The people I’ve seen it from claim to be trans. I’m acutely aware it’s not what all trans think - nobody is a homogeneous group.

Are you saying those people aren’t trans?

 

[smokedout]

The people I’ve seen it from claim to be trans. I’m acutely aware it’s not what all trans think - nobody is a homogeneous group.

Are you saying those people aren’t trans?

No I'm saying your using a tiny fringe group of transpeople and presenting it as the norm - in that blustering 'now trans people are telling us to do this' daily mail kind of way. Bit like if you watched an Isis video and then claimed Muslims were telling you to chop people's heads off.

 

[TopCat]

Possibly a shock because on their website they say this:

You ain't shocked at all!
They have always been a pretty insular bunch and have been evil to sex workers and any women who have the temerity to disagree.

 

[TopCat]

So instead of making the argument with the organisers, the likes of Long take it upon themselves to act as guardians of the march in direct contravention of the stated position of the organisers? And label others 'psychologically colonised' for not agreeing with her. It's breathtakingly arrogant. If she made the argument with the organisers, she clearly lost it.

These twitter spats are very strange. It is hard to tell the difference between the petulant teenagers and the petulant middle-aged academics.

Was there any disagreement with her stance on the march though?
Least no one hit each other.

 

[smokedout]

You ain't shocked at all!
They have always been a pretty insular bunch and have been evil to sex workers and any women who have the temerity to disagree.

I think they've mellowed their stance in the last few years, or perhaps different people are organising it now.

 

[TopCat]

I think they've mellowed their stance in the last few years, or perhaps different people are organising it now.

Why do you think that?

 

[TopCat]

Why do you think that?

That march was the beating heart of the London rad fem beast. To show there was quite a move.

 

[19force8]

Why do you think that?

That march was the beating heart of the London rad fem beast. To show there was quite a move.

Are you answering your own question?

I'm pissed on a long distance train home on a Friday night. What's your excuse?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

That’s a pretty barking argument.

It is indeed. It's also a largely fictitious argument, reflecting the paranoia of the TERF movement and the view held by some of them that trans people are a male conspiracy against lesbianism rather than anything argued by trans advocacy organisations. The very focus on lesbians - as opposed to straight women or gay or straight men - is indicative of where this stuff comes from. And variants of this paranoia go right back to Raymond and the Transsexual Empire book.

I say largely because of course you can find some gobshite somewhere who has argued anything. The process is some arsehole on social media says something resentful and stupid about how unfair it is that they aren't getting laid. If it's said by a straight trans person or a gay trans man it gets immediately and correctly dismissed as an unrepresentative personal idiocy much as it would be if a cis person said something similarly obnoxious. If it's said by some trans lesbian however TERFs quote it forever as proof that all this trans stuff is an evil conspiracy to penetrate lesbians with the unholy phallus.

Of course no trans organisation or advocacy group argues that anyone should have to have sex with anyone they don't want to. Which is hardly surprising as arguing otherwise would be insane. For every time anyone hears this argument directly from some random trans idiot, they will hear it a thousand times from TERF paranoiacs.