Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[trashpony]

I don't want sex with a penis unless I'm expecting it. Sex with men and women is an entirely different experience. I want that to be a choice I make consciously.

Also, we cannot ignore the fact that many women just go along with sex they don't really want because they don't want to offend the penis-bearer. Recent article about this: “Cat Person”

That's a het situation but it resonates with me enormously. I have had a lot of sex I didn't want to because I have been socialised to be nice. Natal women are.

 

[mojo pixy]

Not transphobic, and not a problem imo, although more understandable for women to say no to a transwomen who turns out to have a penis. Cos patriarchy obviously.

So OK for a straight cis male to say no on that basis too, presumably. Or as it was expressed above, is just about everyone caught fast between homophobia and transphobia?

 

[mojo pixy]

I think I've got a new term. Peniphobia. Is that a thing? Guess it is now. Or phallophobia maybe. Which is probably a thing already.

 

[LDC]

So OK for a straight cis male to say no on that basis too, presumably. Or as it was expressed above, is just about everyone caught fast between homophobia and transphobia?

Yeah I think it is, although depends a bit on the context and reasons as ever. Could be because they feel deceived so there's issues around trust and consent. We all discriminate in our sexual preferences the whole time, and mostly that's OK.

 

[mojo pixy]

Yes, the hidden prejudices (aka "preferences") that we don't express socially but perhaps do sexually.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

Sexual preference is not the same as sexual orientation.

Kink is a sexual preference, homosexuality is orientation.

 

[mojo pixy]

And I'm not talking orientation. I'm talking preference. Preferring not to have sex with a woman that used to have a penis but doesn't now. Or (if men are ones orientation) with a man who along with his great new penis also has a vagina. Or ethnic preferences, for that matter (some people have strong ones). None a question of orientation as such.

 

[purenarcotic]

I think I've got a new term. Peniphobia. Is that a thing? Guess it is now. Or phallophobia maybe. Which is probably a thing already.

Lesbians aren’t frightened of penis, we’re not phobic of it. Fuck off.

 

[mojo pixy]

Phobia doesn't always mean fear, especially as a suffix. ___-phobia can just as easily signify disgust. It's use is closer to averse than specifically afraid.

 

[purenarcotic]

Phobia doesn't always mean fear, especially as a suffix. ___-phobia can just as easily signify disgust. It's use is closer to averse than specifically afraid.

What’s wrong with the word lesbian? It means same sex attracted. Simple. No need for some silly term related to willies, it’s not all about cock.

 

[mojo pixy]

I never said it was

I'm trying to nail down transphobia. I don't care at all about lesbians, if that helps.

 

[purenarcotic]

To me it would be things like not getting a job, being attacked, being made homeless, being cut off from family because of who you are, people pulling their kids away from you etc etc. Someone not wanting to sleep with you is tough titty, nobody is entitled to sex, nobody is entitled to abuse someone because they don’t want to shag you. Whilst I think there are probably valid discussions to be had about whether what we see as attractive might be influenced by social norms etc, that’s not the same as telling someone they’re wrong for not wanting to have sex with someone.

 

[Coconutjob]

What’s wrong with the word lesbian? It means same sex attracted. Simple. No need for some silly term related to willies, it’s not all about cock.

I always thought lesbianism was more about liking minge rather than disliking cock. Figuratively.

 

[mojo pixy]

To me it would be things like not getting a job, being attacked, being made homeless, being cut off from family because of who you are, people pulling their kids away from you etc etc. Someone not wanting to sleep with you is tough titty, nobody is entitled to sex, nobody is entitled to abuse someone because they don’t want to shag you. Whilst I think there are probably valid discussions to be had about whether what we see as attractive might be influenced by social norms etc, that’s not the same as telling someone they’re wrong for not wanting to have sex with someone.

There's a common theme of being rejected in all that bolded bit, and all of it is pretty much and on many levels the phobia in operation. Nobody's entitled to sex, true, but is anyone entitled to a job either? Is anyone really entitled to not be whispered about by strangers?

Everyone is certainly entitled not to be abused but in the end I don't think this is about entitlement. I think it's about constant rejection on every level by just about everyone. Sex may be a minor issue, but it's still part of a whole world of no thanks, fuck off that a lot of trans people inhabit.

 

[NoXion]

Shaming people for withdrawing their consent rather goes against the idea of informed consent in the first place, I think.

 

[mojo pixy]

Nobody needs to feel ashamed for not wanting to have sex, for any reason. This isn't IMO about shaming people.

 

[purenarcotic]

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree, it feels very much to me like entitlement but I don’t have the appetite for a drawn out debate here.

 

[iona]

Mojo, most transwomen (80% I believe is the estimate) have, or will keep male genitalia.

Nearly 100% of transmen have female genitalia due to how complex and unsuccessful surgery is..

Do you have a source for those figures, please?

While there are undoubtedly still advances to be made, ftm "bottom surgery" as it's generally called (as opposed to "top surgery") being rubbish or unsuccessful is generally considered a myth or at least a great exaggeration by those who've actually had it or properly researched the surgical options themselves. Plenty of trans men have penises they're perfectly happy with.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

Do you have a source for those figures, please?

Sure. It's in the written evidence from GIRES given to the equalities committee part 1 (for those seeking surgery).

The data is in numbers, but it's possible to work out percentages from the figures.

https://data.parliament.uk/writtene...mittee/transgender-equality/written/19292.pdf

 

[Red Cat]

I think a lot of what gets called entitlement is a defence against humiliation, hence why threats to it often result in aggression and violence.

 

[mojo pixy]

Pointing a finger at and going, "look, entitlement!" is certainly easier than using empathy. It's also possible to do it to anyone, at any time, for any reason, but doesn't really explain anything unless the person doing it is a mind reader.

 

[iona]

Sure. It's in the written evidence from GIRES given to the equalities committee part 1 (for those seeking surgery).

The data is in numbers, but it's possible to work out percentages from the figures.

https://data.parliament.uk/writtene...mittee/transgender-equality/written/19292.pdf

Cheers, will have a look later when I'm not out & about.

 

[Red Cat]

Pointing a finger at and going, "look, entitlement!" is certainly easier than using empathy. It's also possible to do it to anyone, at any time, for any reason, but doesn't really explain anything unless the person doing it is a mind reader.

The context is one in which many men behave as though they are entitled to what they want in a society in which men have more power than women.

I don't feel empathy for the man who uses his superior physical strength to threaten me, but I am able to think about what kinds of anxieties may encourage certain states of mind, by using theory and experience. Thinking, not empathy.

 

[Shechemite]

I think a lot of what gets called entitlement is a defence against humiliation, hence why threats to it often result in aggression and violence.

In this context or others?

 

[andysays]

I think a lot of what gets called entitlement is a defence against humiliation, hence why threats to it often result in aggression and violence.

I think this is right, but I would qualify it to say it's sometimes a defence against perceived humiliation or feelings of humiliation which may be "triggered" by one individual's actions, but are actually the result of a longer and wider process of humiliation and oppression such that the person subject to those feelings misinterprets, eg, disagreement as a transphobic attack or the promotion of "rape culture" when it's actually nothing of the sort.

We see that sort of thing frequently here, more so with the increasing popularity of identarian approaches, where some people are seemingly unable to distinguish between their feelings, and the intentions and actions of others

 

[Red Cat]

In this context or others?

I'm talking generally. I'd say that masculinity involves ideas of strength and a denial of vulnerability that are impossible to live up to and that the kind of 'sense of entitlement' that leads people to aggression and violence is not a state of confidence but its opposite.

 

[Red Cat]

I think this is right, but I would qualify it to say it's sometimes a defence against perceived humiliation or feelings of humiliation which may be "triggered" by one individual's actions, but are actually the result of a longer and wider process of humiliation and oppression such that the person subject to those feelings misinterprets, eg, disagreement as a transphobic attack or the promotion of "rape culture" when it's actually nothing of the sort.

We see that sort of thing frequently here, more so with the increasing popularity of identarian approaches, where some people are seemingly unable to distinguish between their feelings, and the intentions and actions of others

Sorry, I should've been clearer. I meant a defence against feelings of humiliation not that the other is causing the person to feel humiliated.

 

[mojo pixy]

The context is one in which many men behave as though they are entitled to what they want in a society in which men have more power than women.

I don't feel empathy for the man who uses his superior physical strength to threaten me, but I am able to think about what kinds of anxieties may encourage certain states of mind, by using theory and experience. Thinking, not empathy.

That is a practical application of empathy .. considering why someone may be acting as they are and responding in a way that will de-escalate the situation rather than provoke a reaction. But provoking a reaction (like, say, deliberately misgendering someone) is way more exciting, and leaves plenty of scope for riding high horses.

I'd also say that referring to trans women as men (or comparing them to violent, thuggish men) isn't going to help anything. Maybe that's the point.

 

[andysays]

Sorry, I should've been clearer. I meant a defence against feelings of humiliation not that the other is causing the person to feel humiliated.

I think it's an important distinction to make, because when one feels humiliated, one often concludes or assumes that the other is deliberately seeking or causing the person to feel humiliated.

This is understandable on an individual psychological level, but when it's extended into a generalised (pseudo)political approach, it's a complete disaster, IMO, and leads to the sort of incident which originally sparked this thread, which the individuals on both sides and many who have got involved/drawn in afterwards genuinely believe that those on "the other side" are simply interested in attacking/humiliating them and can't possibly have any other motivation.

 

[Red Cat]

I think it's an important distinction to make, because when one feels humiliated, one often concludes or assumes that the other is deliberately seeking or causing the person to feel humiliated.

This is understandable on an individual psychological level, but when it's extended into a generalised (pseudo)political approach, it's a complete disaster, IMO, and leads to the sort of incident which originally sparked this thread, which the individuals on both sides and many who have got involved/drawn in afterwards genuinely believe that those on "the other side" are simply interested in attacking/humiliating them and can't possibly have any other motivation.

By defence I was talking about an unconscious process whereby we prevent awareness of uncomfortable, or even unbearable, feelings. So feelings of humiliation, feeling small, are defended against, or warded off, by making oneself all powerful, or clever, or entitled, or the one who has to win etc. These are unconscious processes, not consciously made to happen. And can take place at group level as well as the individual.

I wasn't talking about having to defend oneself against people who may behave in oppressive ways.