Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[Silas Loom]

I've stayed out of this debate so far, because of not having a dog in the fight. But as far as I can see, structures and roles and positions and spaces which exist purely to support women, and do a vital job, are being captured by people whose main advantage appears to be the conviction that their issues are more important than anyone else's. This is a useful lesson for men like me who think of themselves as feminists but are still not very good at spotting male privilege, and how it manifests, and might be tempted to deny that it exists.

 

[elbows]

Yep. Give women a voice, only not 52 year old lesbian women who disagree with us, we'll get them sacked to shut them up instead.

I can't find enough stories about Anne Ruzylo to give me every detail I need - eg I can't find something that says she was actually sacked, although clearly some people were trying to get her sacked. Another important detail is that the entire local labour executive committee quit due to labours failure to deal with disciplinary complaints relating to the bullying/smear campaign.

All Labour officials on local committee resign | Daily Mail Online

 

[smokedout]

I think there's a lot of people on here putting their arguments about certain trans discourses who aren't being outright transphobic, and there's been some great discussion. Posting articles from right wing newspapers that are outright transphobic isn't a particularly helpful contribution to the discussion. A lot of people are disputing the figures behind the claims in that article, e.g here

These figures come from analysing individal prison reports and guessing the number of trasngender prisoners based on what it said in these reports. The report ignored all the prisons which didn't record any transgender inmates, around a third of prisoners, but included all the prisons which exclusively house sex offenders. So the data is already heavily skewed.

The report does not state what they mean by transgender, and there's no way to check the original reports from which the data was gleaned because they all come from different years - further skewing the data. And as that tweet shows, people could be being housed in sex offenders jails not because they are sex offenders, but because they are especially vulnerable, and so could be transgender.

As well as misrepresenting both current and proposed policy, the report also references the study on criminality that came up on this thread saying it found transwomen: "exhibited male-pattern criminality for violent crimes." As has been shown, this is a bare faced lie and given we can't see their data then it brings into question whether that can also be trusted. And even if it can these figures are little more than guesswork.

I'd suggest the question is not whether this studies lies, it does, but why it lies. Is this sincere concern or is this bigotry? If this was a study trying to prove gay men or lesbians were more likely to be sex offenders on the basis of such shoddy research then I suspect few on here would dispute that prejudice, rather than sinecerely held concern, was the motivating factor behind the research.

 

[smokedout]

Here's the job description.



d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/labourclp96/pages/1278/attachments/original/1445544799/Job_Description_-_CLP_Womens_Officer.pdf?1445544799

How is a 19 year old who only began transitioning to live as a woman a year ago going to even begin to be the best person for this role? Would a 19 year old born woman have even been considered?

She was elected, that's how they decide who is the best person for the role.

 

[killer b]

Would a 19 year old born woman have even been considered?

not sure about the rest of it, but the answer to this is 'yes' IME.

 

[Pickman's model]

These figures come from analysing individal prison reports and guessing the number of trasngender prisoners based on what it said in these reports. The report ignored all the prisons which didn't record any transgender inmates, around a third of prisoners, but included all the prisons which exclusively house sex offenders. So the data is already heavily skewed.

The report does not state what they mean by transgender, and there's no way to check the original reports from which the data was gleaned because they all come from different years - further skewing the data. And as that tweet shows, people could be being housed in sex offenders jails not because they are sex offenders, but because they are especially vulnerable, and so could be transgender.

As well as misrepresenting both current and proposed policy, the report also references the study on criminality that came up on this thread saying it found transwomen: "exhibited male-pattern criminality for violent crimes." As has been shown, this is a bare faced lie and given we can't see their data then it brings into question whether that can also be trusted. And even if it can these figures are little more than guesswork.

I'd suggest the question is not whether this studies lies, it does, but why it lies. Is this sincere concern or is this bigotry? If this was a study trying to prove gay men or lesbians were more likely to be sex offenders on the basis of such shoddy research then I suspect few on here would dispute that prejudice, rather than sinecerely held concern, was the motivating factor behind the research.

yeh it's a scurvy piece of work

 

[elbows]

I have to say that its no wonder things are ending up in ugly battles, with few winners, entrenched positions and the right-wing press loving it when language like this is used:

A veteran Labour politician and feminist firebrand could face expulsion from the party over a speech in which she joked about ‘thumping’ pro-transgender activists.

Linda Bellos, a friend of Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn, is being investigated after complaints over the remarks she made at a meeting this month.

Addressing a group of feminists in York on transgenderism and the GRA, the 66-year-old said: ‘I play football and I box, and if any one of those b******s comes near me I will take off my glasses and thump them.’

The former leader of Lambeth Council added: ‘I am quite prepared to threaten violence because it seems to me politically what they are seeking to do is p*** on women.’

Ms Bellos, 66 – long renowned as an outspoken black and lesbian activist – said later that she was referring to pro-transgender campaigners who had beaten up a woman at a rally in Hyde Park, London, in September, as reported by The Mail on Sunday, and insisted she would only ever use violence in self-defence.

Speaking to The Mail on Sunday, Ms Bellos said: ‘If transgender activists inadvertently propose things which are in their interests and against the interests of those of us who remain women, such as women-only safe spaces in lavatories, hospital wards and prisons, I am going to say so.

‘I will say it without fear because a lot of feminists are being silenced. That is contrary to freedom of speech. There is a particular fetish among heterosexual men who don women’s clothes and get a buzz out of visiting women’s loos. We know there are a lot of pervs out there. The genuine trans don’t get off on this, but the proposed new laws might be a cover for it.’

I find this very hard to cope with properly, when sentiments I can understand and agree with sit right next to inflammatory shit that leaves me seething.

Labour feminist hero faces axe in transgender row | Daily Mail Online

 

[Pickman's model]

(from elbows' link above)

is this really a thing? never heard of it before. but perhaps i move in the right circles.

 

[19force8]

Here's the job description.

How is a 19 year old who only began transitioning to live as a woman a year ago going to even begin to be the best person for this role? Would a 19 year old born woman have even been considered?

We could give her a year to do the job and see if she gets re-elected.

Or just pick on her from the start.

 

[killer b]

I think people may be overestimating how desirable officer positions are within CLPs. They often struggle to fill them at all.

 

[redsquirrel]

I think people may be overestimating how desirable officer positions are within CLPs. They often struggle to fill them at all.

Yeah. It's quite possible she was the only candidate.

And if there was an election I presume the electorate would be the women of that CLP. This person may be a tit but if they want her, well, should the NEC overrule them?

 

[19force8]

is this really a thing? never heard of it before. but perhaps i move in the right circles.

Only tried it once, was surprised to find they didn't have luxury furnishings and a free bar - turned out my girlfriend was lying about why she spent so long in there.

 

[elbows]

is this really a thing? never heard of it before. but perhaps i move in the right circles.

It's long been clear to me that cross-dressing etc fetishes of the sexual variety are one of the big fuels of feminist fires when it comes to trans issues. Some issues of concern in this regard are understandable, but the stuff instantly gets conflated with genuine trans stuff, inflammatory language is ingrained and historically well-practiced on this front, and there is a lack of real data that would help determine actual risk.

 

[Athos]

It's not true, here's the new policy guidelines published in 2016 after a review of tramsgender people in prisons, the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act are not likely to affect them

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...le/566828/transgender-review-findings-web.PDF

What you linked to are not "new policy guidelines"; it's a review. You can find the relevant Prison Service Instruction 17/2016 here. You will notice the significance therein of Gender Recognition Certificates.

Should any amendments to the Gender Recognition Act change the process for obtaining certificates (e.g. by 'demedicalising i.e. requiring nothing more that a individual's say-so), that will impact on trans prisoners (and those detained with them).

The extent of possible changes to the GRA remains unclear, but, given what's being lobbied for, this seems like a legitimate area for women to discuss.

Though, I agree with you that the Times report was an appalling piece of journalism, to the extent that even I (someone who has not been quick to dismiss legitimate concerns) have to question the motivation for it.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I don't quite see the problem here. A sex offender who has transitioned, is transitioning, or is planning to transition is still a sex offender, and should be treated accordingly. I don't quite see why the notion of transgender would affect a prison's ability to take proportionate measures to protect prisoners based on a sensible assessment of risk - a trans woman who raped a woman as a man is still a rapist, and can and should still be treated as such.

 

[killer b]

Do prisons take proportionate measures to protect prisoners? It's not a topic I'm particularly up on, but from what I've heard it's not a given.

 

[Athos]

It's long been clear to me that cross-dressing etc fetishes of the sexual variety are one of the big fuels of feminist fires when it comes to trans issues. Some issues of concern in this regard are understandable, but the stuff instantly gets conflated with genuine trans stuff, inflammatory language is ingrained and historically well-practiced on this front, and there is a lack of real data that would help determine actual risk.

It doesn't help is that the trans lobby is pushing for things that erode that distinction. Not for any sinister reason, but as a practical consequence. For instance, demedicalising the process seems compassionate to trans people, but it does increase the possibility for abuse i.e. men who aren't trans claiming to be so for nefarious purposes.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Do prisons take proportionate measures to protect prisoners? It's not a topic I'm particularly up on, but from what I've heard it's not a given.

I'm sure they often don't. But that doesn't change my question, unless the point is that prisons are too incompetent to be trusted with such a thing, which may well be true.

 

[killer b]

Underfunded rather than incompetent, I expect.

 

[Athos]

I don't quite see the problem here. A sex offender who has transitioned, is transitioning, or is planning to transition is still a sex offender, and should be treated accordingly. I don't quite see why the notion of transgender would affect a prison's ability to take proportionate measures to protect prisoners based on a sensible assessment of risk - a trans woman who raped a woman as a man is still a rapist, and can and should still be treated as such.

By that logic, why not have all non-nonces in mixed-sex prisons.

 

[elbows]

It doesn't help is that the trans lobby is pushing for things that erode that distinction. Not for any sinister reason, but as a practical consequence. For instance, demedicalising the process seems compassionate to trans people, but it does increase the possibility for abuse i.e. men who aren't trans claiming to be so for nefarious purposes.

Yeah thats why I mention it now, it's always been lingering beneath the surface but the proposed legislation has brought it to a head. And I don't think we are in a great position to debate it sanely because of the nature of historical use of 'fears about pervy men in dresses' and various conflations by some associated with certain strands of feminism.

 

[Athos]

Yeah thats why I mention it now, it's always been lingering beneath the surface but the proposed legislation has brought it to a head. And I don't think we are in a great position to debate it sanely because of the nature of historical use of 'fears about pervy men in dresses' and various conflations by some associated with certain strands of feminism.

Yeah, the state of the debate is shocking. It's pretty shit, here, but out there it's really poisonous.

 

[Silas Loom]

I think people may be overestimating how desirable officer positions are within CLPs. They often struggle to fill them at all.

That's quite an important point, given that it's now a cause celebre. There must be some record somewhere of whether this particular position was contested.

 

[smokedout]

What you linked to are not "new policy guidelines"; it's a review. You can find the relevant Prison Service Instruction 17/2016 here. You will notice the significance therein of Gender Recognition Certificates.

Should any amendments to the Gender Recognition Act change the process for obtaining certificates (e.g. by 'demedicalising i.e. requiring nothing more that a individual's say-so), that will impact on trans prisoners (and those detained with them).

The extent of possible changes to the GRA remains unclear, but, given what's being lobbied for, this seems like a legitimate area for women to discuss.

Though, I agree with you that the Times report was an appalling piece of journalism, to the extent that even I (someone who has not been quick to dismiss legitimate concerns) have to question the motivation for it.

It was the government's response to the review, which was used to formulate the policy you linked to, as you'd know if you bothered to read the first page. And yes, I note the significance of the GRC, the significant facts being that a GRC or lack of one is neither a bar to or guarantee of a prisoner being moved to a prison that matches their acquired gender. So what the report said isn't true. So what's your point again?

 

[elbows]

Yeah, the state of the debate is shocking. It's pretty shit, here, but out there it's really poisonous.

One of the problems, which I am far from immune from myself, is that most of the press are only interested in reporting on this stuff when it results in ugly scenes. Perhaps there is all manner of sensible discussion and disagreement going on that is not so visible?

For example I would hope that somewhere there are trans, pro-trans etc people and groups who are willing to take womens concerns seriously. But if they exist its not exactly easy to find their words online.

 

[elbows]

Having said that, it wasn't hard to find sensible stuff being said in regards to the Scottish governments own plans to modify the Gender Recognition Act.

Close the Gap, Engender, Equate Scotland, Rape Crisis Scotland, Scottish Women’s Aid, Women 50:50 and Zero Tolerance, jointly said:

“For over a decade, we have engaged in constructive dialogue with our colleagues in the Scottish Trans Alliance, Equality Network, LGBT Youth Scotland and Stonewall Scotland. We do not regard trans equality and women’s equality to be in competition or contradiction with each other. We support the Equal Recognition campaign and welcome the reform of the Gender Recognition Act. Rape Crisis and Women’s Aid in Scotland provide trans inclusive services on the basis of self identification. We will continue to work collaboratively with Scottish Trans Alliance and other equality organisations with the aim of ensuring that new processes are appropriately designed and without unintended consequences.”

Equality organisations welcome Scottish Government consultation to improve the Gender Recognition Act

 

[Athos]

It was the government's response to the review, which was used to formulate the policy you linked to, as you'd know if you bothered to read the first page. And yes, I note the significance of the GRC, the significant facts being that a GRC or lack of one is neither a bar to or guarantee of a prisoner being moved to a prison that matches their acquired gender. So what the report said isn't true. So what's your point again?

I read it all. The fact remains it's not what you claimed it is.

I've explicitly criticised the article; it has mistakes of fact and of methodology, and, as I said, I suspect it's ideologically motivated.

But you're being disingenous. The Prison Service Instruction is quite explicit that to deny a move to someone with a certificate would be exceptional. So, any change to the process for issuing certificates will directly impact on this area (whereas you claimed "the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act are not likely to affect them"). It's legitimate area of concern for women.

That was my point. Is it one with which you disagree? What is your point?

 

[smokedout]

Having said that, it wasn't hard to find sensible stuff being said in regards to the Scottish governments own plans to modify the Gender Recognition Act.



Equality organisations welcome Scottish Government consultation to improve the Gender Recognition Act

As in the states, actual providers of women only treatment and services are generally supportive of trans-inclusivity. In the recent transgender enquiry it was a women's refuge organisation who gave some of the most supportive evidence in favour of ending the exemption to equalities law that allows transgender people to be discriminated against if it meets a proportionate aim (the government rejected this proposal by the way). Women's Aid said they sometimes use this exclusion when recruiting staff but that policy is currently under review. Rape Crisis in Scotland has been particularly supportive of trans-inclusivity. This approach seems to be borne out of practice, these organisations are already delivering services and possibly providing employment to transwomen and it does not seem to be causing problems.

This is not a fight between providers of services for women and transwomen, it is a fight coming from a very small subset of radical feminists electing themselves to speak on behalf of service providers, regardless of what those organisation s might think themselves. The excuse I've seen given for the lack of women's service providers taking the trans-exclusionary line is that they are too scared to speak up. I suspect some would rather they didn't speak up because then things like evidence, current and best practice and the actual experiences of those already providing services to transpeople would demolish some of the more lurid concerns that have been raised.

 

[elbows]

It doesn't help is that the trans lobby is pushing for things that erode that distinction. Not for any sinister reason, but as a practical consequence. For instance, demedicalising the process seems compassionate to trans people, but it does increase the possibility for abuse i.e. men who aren't trans claiming to be so for nefarious purposes.

I already replied to this post in a somewhat affirmative manner, because I was agreeing that this is a reason why the debate has become more heated this year.

However I feel the need to say that I don't really see the proposed changes to Gender Recognition acts as simply being something the 'trans lobby' is pushing for. Support for such changes appears to me to be broader than that, in great part as a consequence of wider progress achieved before now, which has left the Gender Recognition act behind the times.

Since I broadly support the changes, I am far more interested in having mechanisms that allow any risks and unintended consequences to be properly dealt with if they arise. And one way that I may attempt to separate legitimate concerns from other agendas is whether opponents simply seek to ensure such safeguards are in place, or whether they are just trying to scupper the entire concept of self-identification.

 

[Athos]

I already replied to this post in a somewhat affirmative manner, because I was agreeing that this is a reason why the debate has become more heated this year.

However I feel the need to say that I don't really see the proposed changes to Gender Recognition acts as simply being something the 'trans lobby' is pushing for. Support for such changes appears to me to be broader than that, in great part as a consequence of wider progress achieved before now, which has left the Gender Recognition act behind the times.

Since I broadly support the changes, I am far more interested in having mechanisms that allow any risks and unintended consequences to be properly dealt with if they arise. And one way that I may attempt to separate legitimate concerns from other agendas is whether opponents simply seek to ensure such safeguards are in place, or whether they are just trying to scupper the entire concept of self-identification.

I think I'd agree with all of that.

ETA: as I've said before, I didn't think this good versus evil; it's a balancing act of goods versus harms (to both trans and other women).