Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[Shechemite]

I spend as much time looking up acronyms on these threads as I do reading them.

This has been covered upthread

Modern life is a bit shit, yes

 

[Spymaster]

This has been covered upthread

Not to my satisfaction.

 

[belboid]

Not from what I've seen. Unless you can point me to something bigoted she's said/done

As I have already said (several times) she refers to trans women campaigners as 'Mens Rights Activists,' is a bit of a clue. Frequent references to 'the trans cult' is another. The video of her shoving her camera in peoples faces is a third.

 

[belboid]

Shocking how many leftists will bend over backwards to justify the totally indefensible actions of a wild identity politics movement, which is frankly out of control.

'No platforming tactics' used against old feminist groups is totally and utterly disproportionate to any perceived insult or slight. I'd say you should be ashamed of yourself belboid but after all, these are your people... spent too much time drinking the Koolaid whilst you were hanging around with the ISN.

That would be when you were still in the SWP defending a rapist, wasn't it?

As I said repeatedly earlier in the thread, this was a protest against a falsely advertised meeting with a bigoted agenda. They (the meeting organisers) were not there for an honest debate, but to promote an anti-trans agenda. There is a big difference between protesting at a meeting and no platforming. I have not supported the latter in this thread or anywhere else, so please dont mis-represent what I've said.

Whether it's pursuing campaigns to close down iconic leftwing institutions like the Working Class Movement Library in Salford, forming up mobs to physically attack unarmed and non-violent groups such as this one, the habit of slandering all those who oppose you as transphobic and bigoted (regardless of their history of activism and commitment to the left), doxxing, spamming and twitter-swarming opponents, gloating over the suicides of prominent socialist writers, attacking their own side - maoist-style - for lack of ideological purity, trying to get liberal college tutors sacked for no good reason, supporting authoritarian top-down encroachments of the state and the justice-system to persecute those who disagree, the current Identity Politics movement which seems to have a hegemonic role over all non-Labour Party related activism is utterly disgusting.

If you buy it, you are not a socialist. You are not on the left. You're a part of a cancerous cult of bullying and persecution and to be honest you need to fuck right off.

And learn how to post links. Preferably coherent ones that make a point.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yep. There's no one here defending/mitigating the assault.

Just bringing up how awful the victim is. Repeatedly

I would rather concentrate on the agenda of the people who made and released the video of the incident. That group's agenda is very clear and very nasty.

 

[chilango]

Pity this doesn't hold true of how FIT cunts should be treated.

It did when we could.

 

[The Flying Pig]

Since when has been ok to rock up and film a protest without permission?

What planet are you on?

 

[Wilf]

Oh, fuck, what to say? Don't think an attack on a 60 year old/middle aged/whatever label you like, is all that great. Maybe it is being minimised on this thread, but then it's not quite a severe beating. I don't have a problem with activists confronting other activists, it happens. But this looked to be both petty violence but also spiteful and a bit cowardly.

But the politics... it all looks like a battle between specific politics, an identarian battle to secure the high ground after a minor spat*. Most of all, none of it moves in the direction of solidarity, class politics or confronting the fuckers who really oppress us.

*Edit: I mean this particular case does. Fwiw I fully support trans activists against radical feminists arguing the 'you are not a real woman' line.

 

[Sea Star]

I believe Stonewall pulled out when they saw who the other speakers were, not because of pressure. And it was still being advertised as a debate after they had pulled out.

I spoke to Bex Stinson prior to this. She was never down to attend this meeting. They just put her name on to make it look legitimate.

We don't talk to fascists and we certainly don't talk to TERFs. Before the meeting a load of us discussed this and decided not to make their lies look like legitimate opinions. There is no good way to talk to fascists.

While everyone has a right to speak freely, no one has a right to an audience.

Also - there were no threats made to get the meeting cancelled. These morons - including the extremely abusive Miranda Yardley, reviled among trans community - lied to everyone. they lied to the venue, they lied on the poster, they made it look like this was a New Cross Learning event, and it wasn't, they attempted to show that this was a balanced debate and it wasn't. We merely decided to stay away.

The person that I am aware of who managed to get this event stopped wasn't a trans person, was a local, and was concerned that such an event would be detrimental to the community at large. All he did was approach the owners of the venue and told them about what MY was all about - the doxing, the abuse and the constant lies.

It was MY who put up a website - when I stood for parliament - implying that I was a sexual abuser of children. It was actionable but I can't afford that sort of legal action so I just had to ignore it.

Anyway- those who want to believe that all trans women are violent men on the basis of this one event - which was far from as clear cut as some of you seem to be saying - go ahead. you've made your minds up - mostly the usual suspects I see.

That's my last word on this.

ETA - I lied. The truth outs.

The TERF was filming and was challenged. But you know that...

The next bit was the TERF grabbed someone and held them in a headlock.

The punch came from a trans woman in an attempt to free the person in a headlock.

The person in the headlock was an assigned female at birth non binary person.

And despite all this, the TERFs called all the protesters men. Clearly not. Not in any sense.

 

[The Flying Pig]

She wasn't just 'standing there', it's quite obvious - even from the video she released herself - she was shoving herself in peoples faces, repeatedly. I don't know if she was shouting 'you're Men's Rights Activists' at the trans women - it's something she is fond of - but she was very clearly deliberately trying to provoke. It's why she was smiling straight after the event, she'd got what she wanted.

What a weird twisted view you seem to have. I guess you must be another one of the me me me crowd.

 

[chilango]

What planet are you on?

You're cool with people filming you on protests?

 

[The Flying Pig]

Oh, fuck, what to say? Don't think an attack on a 60 year old/middle aged/whatever label you like, is all that great. Maybe it is being minimised on this thread, but then it's not quite a severe beating. I don't have a problem with activists confronting other activists, it happens. But this looked to be both petty violence but also spiteful and a bit cowardly.

But the politics... it all looks like a battle between specific politics, an identarian battle to secure the high ground after a minor spat*. Most of all, none of it moves in the direction of solidarity, class politics or confronting the fuckers who really oppress us.

*Edit: I mean this particular case does. Fwiw I fully support trans activists against radical feminists arguing the 'you are not a real woman' line.

I think you hit the nail on the head most of these groups do not appear to be interested in solidarity, class politics or confronting the capitalist class. These groups are put in place to distract us from the real challenges that normal working class people have to contend with.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I spend as much time looking up acronyms on these threads as I do reading them.

I'd say "get with it, grandad", but I believe you're slightly younger than me.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What a weird twisted view you seem to have. I guess you must be another one of the me me me crowd.

Are you saying that this is not what she was doing, or is inclined to do? I've done a quick search to see if I can find stuff on her, but only found things on others in her group, who are recorded doing exactly what belboid says, shouting down various meetings with deliberately hateful words. How many times has she done this kind of thing and how many times has she been punched for it? We're only seeing here one time it's provoked violence - because her group saw fit to publicise it, taking the opportunity to portray it as male-on-female violence and 'trans-terrorism'. And I'm absolutely not justifying the violence here. I agree with Wilf that punching a person then running off is a cowardly thing to do. But not to see how that act of violence is now being used is naive.

 

[belboid]

I spoke to Bex Stinson prior to this. She was never down to attend this meeting. They just put her name on to make it look legitimate.

We don't talk to fascists and we certainly don't talk to TERFs. Before the meeting a load of us discussed this and decided not to make their lies look like legitimate opinions. There is no good way to talk to fascists.

While everyone has a right to speak freely, no one has a right to an audience.

Also - there were no threats made to get the meeting cancelled. These morons - including the extremely abusive Miranda Yardley, reviled among trans community - lied to everyone. they lied to the organisers, they lied on the poster, they made it look like this was a New Cross Learning event, and it wasn't, they attempted to show that this was a balanced debate and it wasn't. We merely decided to stay away.

The person that I am aware of who managed to get this event stopped wasn't a trans person, was a local, and was concerned that such an event would be detrimental to the community at large. All he did was approach the owners of the venue and told them about what MY was all about - the doxing, the abuse and the constant lies.

It was MY who put up a website - when I stood for parliament - implying that I was a sexual abuser of children. It was actionable but I can't afford that sort of legal action so I just had to ignore it.

Anyway- those who want to believe that all trans women are violent men on the basis of this one event - which was far from as clear cut as some of you seem to be saying - go ahead. you've made your minds up - mostly the usual suspects I see.

That's my last word on this.

As a cis man, I wouldn't compare TERF's to fascists, but I can easily see why any trans person would (both do try to deny your existence). 'decided not to make their lies look like legitimate opinions' is absolutely spot on and why it is right to protest such events, not legitimise them.

 

[Das Uberdog]

That would be when you were still in the SWP defending a rapist, wasn't it?

No, moron - I was actually kicked out of the SWP a full 3 years before that debacle for setting up a rogue democratic branch in central Lancashire.

As I said repeatedly earlier in the thread, this was a protest against a falsely advertised meeting with a bigoted agenda. They (the meeting organisers) were not there for an honest debate, but to promote an anti-trans agenda. There is a big difference between protesting at a meeting and no platforming. I have not supported the latter in this thread or anywhere else, so please dont mis-represent what I've said.

You're defending a bunch of idiots using no-platform tactics against 70s rad-fems. Disgraceful.

And learn how to post links. Preferably coherent ones that make a point.

Tell me what you don't like about them

 

[Das Uberdog]

The real point here is that you cannot separate this wild and unprovoked violence from the general culture of identity politics activism which is running amok amongst the left.

It's a disease and if it's not dealt with, it will strangle any of the fledgling hopes given by the recent Corbyn moment that left wing ideas might ever be popularised.

 

[belboid]

No, moron - I was actually kicked out of the SWP a full 3 years before that debacle for setting up a rogue democratic branch in central Lancashire.

fair enough, apologies.

You're defending a bunch of idiots using no-platform tactics against 70s rad-fems. Disgraceful.

I have explicitly said I do not support 'no platforming,' so don't misrepresent me sunshine. And there were plenty of rad-fems who were reactionary in the seventies (a minority, even amongst rad-fems), they were vicious against socialist feminists back then too. But at least they were mainly being reactionary against men, kicking up as it were. Now they are being reactionary against trans women, they're kicking down. Hence they're bigots. Socialists should always side with the oppressed, pretty basic stuff.

Tell me what you don't like about them

I did. They are posted incoherently and I have no idea what their point is, a quick look at two of them made things no clearer. Don't just post up links without explanation, please.

 

[belboid]

The real point here is that you cannot separate this wild and unprovoked violence from the general culture of identity politics activism which is running amok amongst the left.

It's a disease and if it's not dealt with, it will strangle any of the fledgling hopes given by the recent Corbyn moment that left wing ideas might ever be popularised.

Wild and unprovoked? You have no problem with calling trans campaigners 'Men's Right Activists' then? With shouting about 'the trans cult' or with taking photos of activists in order to 'doxx' them

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The real point here is that you cannot separate this wild and unprovoked violence from the general culture of identity politics activism which is running amok amongst the left.

It's a disease and if it's not dealt with, it will strangle any of the fledgling hopes given by the recent Corbyn moment that left wing ideas might ever be popularised.

'terfs' are fundamentally reactionary. Theirs is id politics of a very strong kind with reactionary ideas about gender essentialism that make it the natural ally of conservative right reactionaries. Insisting on calling trans women men is the kind of thing Richard Littlejohn would do. Their dismissal and belittling of the experiences of others, labelling them delusional or mentally ill, is disgusting, and deserves to be called out as such.

Surely it is such people, who choose to focus much of their energy on attacking trans women (they're strangely silent on the subject of trans men), who are the disease. With all the problems we face at the moment, this is what they are focussing on? wtf?

 

[The Flying Pig]

The real point here is that you cannot separate this wild and unprovoked violence from the general culture of identity politics activism which is running amok amongst the left.

It's a disease and if it's not dealt with, it will strangle any of the fledgling hopes given by the recent Corbyn moment that left wing ideas might ever be popularised.

Agree with most of what you say but lets not get confused! These people are in no way left wing. They are along with other such groups part of the new me me me world. Give them a few months etc and we find them moving up market into fancy jobs, writing in the grudian, fashion designers etc and then mocking us minnions.

 

[belboid]

The buggers are legal now, what more are they after?

 

[inva]

The real point here is that you cannot separate this wild and unprovoked violence from the general culture of identity politics activism which is running amok amongst the left.

It's a disease and if it's not dealt with, it will strangle any of the fledgling hopes given by the recent Corbyn moment that left wing ideas might ever be popularised.

get a grip

 

[Kaka Tim]

TERF wars ....

(... are deeply depressing)

 

[redsquirrel]

Can't you make the logical leap? That overwhelmingly it is men who do violence. You can point at the 10% as long as you like, it doesn't alter the general, overwhelming picture.

And? Are you implying that that has some bearing on the gender of Flick Wood?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Agree with most of what you say but lets not get confused! These people are in no way left wing. They are along with other such groups part of the new me me me world. Give them a few months etc and we find them moving up market into fancy jobs, writing in the grudian, fashion designers etc and then mocking us minnions.

You're talking about trans rights activists here, yes?

I wonder if there were people saying the same thing back in the 70s about Stonewall and gay rights activists. And people talk about the lack of solidarity. That's the lack of solidarity right there.

 

[Sirena]

You're talking about trans rights activists here, yes?

I wonder if there were people saying the same thing back in the 70s about Stonewall and gay rights activists. And people talk about the lack of solidarity. That's the lack of solidarity right there.

Were you involved back in the 70s?

Because I was.

 

[spanglechick]

The substantive point may be that you don't prove your existence as a woman by punching a woman.

If I punch you will my gender identity be in question?

I did have a problem writing 'she', though, in light of 'her' response.

People who use scare quotes around the gendered pronouns of trans people (or terms explaining transgender people) are twats. Every time. It's a rule.

Wow. Not sure which is worse: criticising an assault victim for 'incorrectly' identifying someone's gender; or criticising her for referring to her attacker by their sex (rather then their 'gender identity')

See what I mean?

And this is a justification for hunting them down and 'fucking them up'?

Women need to learn to have the correct opinions? Or just be quieter about them?

Oh stop. You don't get to win this with bullshit chivalry.

Like everyone on this thread, I don't commend violence. But being a woman doesn't give you extra rights to be protected from people's reactions to your obnoxious behaviour. Man or woman, if you spout inflammatory rhetoric to angry people there's a bloody good chance you'll get a slap. Being sixty doesn't protect you. Being a woman doesn't (and shouldn't) protect you. It's not right but it isn't worse because of your age or gender (or biological sex).

 

[Das Uberdog]

You're talking about trans rights activists here, yes?

I wonder if there were people saying the same thing back in the 70s about Stonewall and gay rights activists. And people talk about the lack of solidarity. That's the lack of solidarity right there.

Gay rights activists didn't launch unprovoked physical assaults against groups of cranky radfems.

It doesn't matter that the Radfems were courting controversy, it doesn't matter that they're also identitarians, what matters is they successfully drew out the worst excesses of their opnonents in the broad light of day. Bang to rights - shown up for exactly what it is, a club for teenage student bullies.

Three men attacked the woman in question and she was lamped - for 'aggravating' them with her camera, apparently. I cannot think of a single other scenario in which so-called leftists would defend this behaviour.

 

[trashpony]

Transpeople are murdered and assaulted by men. Men hate women and they hate transpeople. Women - even if some of them are 'TERFs' - aren't actually killing or hurting transpeople. Men are. But somehow it's easier to condemn women.

Some violent misogynist men are saying they're trans:
Rapist moved to female jail after sex change
Ian Huntley wants a sex change so he can live in a women's prison
which I think is pretty fucking scary.

I would like to think that most people would think that violent rapists and paedophile murderers shouldn't be given unfettered access to the women's estate, particularly when the women's prison system isn't set up for violence (because so few of the population is). Where is the outcry?

Transpeople and women should be working together to decry violence. We should stand united.