Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?
- Thread starter The Flying Pig
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littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It's crucial! Two people have misrepresented what she said.
eta: ah it was understatement. As you were.
Fair enough and apologies weepiper but the point stands, there would not be any 'insistence' she was trans, hopefully there would be a more nuanced and supportive approach than the one that might have been practiced 30 years ago.
Treacle Toes
Time
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
No the point doesn't stand. You, quite reasonably, posted up a list of things to look out for, and wp's response was that yes, several of those applied to her over a period of years. But it seems you weren't posting that list to extend the conversation and see how her situation matched up, more to prove a point you'd already decided upon.
19force8
For the avoidance of faith
Really? That's what you call beaten up?
All I'm saying is get a sense of perspective. This was an insignificant fracas in which nobody was seriously hurt, but it's being talked up out of all proportion for political advantage by people who seem to enjoy persecuting a vulnerable minority. Well good for them, they provoked an inappropriate response. I ain't joining in.
FabricLiveBaby!
Live Baby Fabric!
I'd stopped contributing to this thread because I didn't really feel like I had anything else to contribute. But... what have I come back to? Jesus.
Innit. I was the same. In fact some of those symptoms only alleviated themselves into my well 20s. And some of them still persist now.
Innit. I was the same. In fact some of those symptoms only alleviated themselves into my well 20s. And some of them still persist now.
- insisting they're of the opposite sex - yes, as a toddler, until I was told that sex is ONLY what is between your legs (my mum came from a communist country so they were way more forward thinking re: gender and sex).
- disliking or refusing to wear clothes that are typically worn by their sex and wanting to wear clothes typically worn by the opposite sex - yes into my 20s
- disliking or refusing to take part in activities and games that are typically associated with their sex, and wanting to take part in activities and games typically associated with the opposite sex - still now, but when I was younger my and my bother used to watch adverts and would fight over which "boys" toys were his or mine. Screaming rows. I never owned a doll and cried out of anger and frustration when unsuspecting adults gave me them to play with.
- preferring to play with children of the opposite biological sex - yes, all through childhood, adolescence, and my 20s (not that I played in my late teens 20's but certainly socially).
- disliking or refusing to pass urine as other members of their biological sex usually do – for example, a boy may want to sit down to pass urine and a girl may want to stand up - funnily enough, YES! My mum caught me peeing up standing when I was 8 years old. By that time I'd had a lot of practice and I was a pretty good shot to. Way more difficult when hair starts to sprout.
- insisting or hoping their genitals will change – for example, a boy may say he wants to be rid of his penis, and a girl may want to grow a penis -no. I never thought that would happen because sex was explained to me.
- feeling extreme distress at the physical changes of puberty - FUCK YES. I was suicidal for several years. And to some extent I still do feel some distress (my body is a reminder of the things I shouldn't be doing).
At the time no one suggested anything other than I was a girl who was a "bit of a rebel". It (rebellion) was welcomed by my mum. By society and my peers not so much.
Kids bullied me ruthlessly for refusing to conform. Perhaps had I lived in the age we are now it would have been suggested I was trans, or I may have found myself on the internet and diagnosed myself, found an echo chamber to egg me on.... or maybe not. Who the fuck knows? I'm not a psychic and neither is anyone else posting here.
All I can say is I'm glad my non conformity was embraced by my mum and eventually myself, no matter how difficult society made it.
I came out of it, like weepiper, and I'm stronger for it. Disphoria can and *does* go away, eventually.
Anyway, fuck us "cis" women, right? or AFAB people, or whatever bullshit acronym we are told is ours.
What do we know? I guess we're just "petulant", "playing victim", "being sensitive" or "saying we would have been forced into something (thinly veiled accusations of hysteria)" or *insert bullshit misogynist put down here*
I'm still reading this thread. But Weepiper's abysmal dismissal has angered me because it chimes with me and many other women like me - no matter how "good" and silent we are.
Edit: I see smokedout apologised while I was typing this essay. Good on ya!
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Clair De Lune
Apocalypse cocktails
How do you think your story might have played out these days? As in what might you have done, rather than what others might suggest.
Clair De Lune
Apocalypse cocktails
*some people's disphoria goes away.
Edited to say I relate very much to yours and weepipers experiences as children. Mine was very similar. But I'm not trans and neither are you.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Nobody is suggesting it was a serious beating and I'm not worried whether we use words like attacked, twatted or whatever. But it was what it was, 'jostling', 'fracas' or whatever terms you want to use from the last century, followed up by a punch. The point is the jostly-puncing was initiated by one side and the punch was pre-announced. It's of no great importance, but it is what it is. The irony is, physical confrontation between left and/or equality groups in the UK is actually very rare.
The underlying political debate is more important - and is complicated, even more so as much of it plays out through the lens of ID politics, even though it doesn't have to. We are all learning and threads like this are important even if they do get a bit shouty. Taking me as an example: I'm in favour of trans rights (obviously) and made a number of contributions on one of the Bahar Mustafa threads against 'exclusionary feminists'. From memory, my line was what do feminist/women's groups lose by admitting trans women - what could they possibly object to? I think I still hold to that position, it's solidarity 101 - and it's also part of the process of overcoming the vulnerability and attacks trans people have had to cope with. But then there have been posts on this thread about women discussing reproductive issues and not necessarily wanting to do that in front of trans women who won't experience those issues. Women also suffer oppression and that means that health issues are also power issues. It's complicated and messy. And I'm aware I might well be getting close to mansplaining things I don't experience myself. I'm not an intersectionalist (to say the least), but there are difficult issues when it comes to thinking about how different identities and social divisions interact. Not new issues, but difficult ones.
Jonti
what the dormouse said
I don't think she said she was trans, just that she had gd growing up.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
This is the problem of language I mentioned earlier. Our everyday terms mix up gender and sex.
I think flb's position (forgive me if I'm wrong) is that this is right and healthy: "sex is ONLY what is between your legs". So she's a woman, as a simple biological fact, but that doesn't have to restrict her to 'woman' as a gender role, which is where to my ears her mum's attitude was pretty cool. My mum wouldn't have been like that at all. I dunno how you square this circle, tbh - there seem to me to be competing interests that both deserve respect but that are at points in conflict with one another. Someone posted earlier (wilf?) that they were finding themselves liking posts from both sides of this debate, and I'm finding similar.
FabricLiveBaby!
Live Baby Fabric!
Yeah, that's exactly what my mums's attitude was. And it was the prevailing concept in communist countries. Sex was a circumstance of your birth but didn't tell you anything about your personality or what you could achieve. Biological essentialism, so to speak, was out the window. And it was a cool attitude, and a rare one too! especially in Thatcherite UK where gender was being used to sell the same thing twice (long live capitalism, eh). Where my mum came from that just didn't exist. Stuff was stuff and stuff was in one colour for everyone.
As to the rest, I've tried to square that circle many times, and believe it or not have changed my position on this significantly in a relatively short space of time (compared to other political viewpoints). Personally, I don't believe that this is circle that can be squared - precisely because, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, they are rooted in polar opposite philosophical theories. (materialism vs idealism)
So the best that can be done is compromise, but compromising on such a fundamental question of how reality and consciousness is formed is going to be frought. And so it's no wonder stuff gets punchy.
OT, but did everyone read this article in the NY Times about women under communism? Opinion | Why Women Had Better Sex Under Socialism
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
That's an excellent line. I'm nicking that.
Jonti
what the dormouse said
That's not what's driving the punchiness though. There's something else going on here.
eta I'm put in mind of Yuwipi Woman
eta yeah if you want to know where the madness comes from, what she said
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19force8
For the avoidance of faith
Actually, there are people out there who are, but you're right that's not the real issue.
I agree with you on solidarity 101. I think it's been made clear several times that none of the trans-women on Urban plan to gate-crash support groups for medical complaints or other such targeted issues. But there are people out there who want to deny trans-women access to any women's services at all. I agree it's complicated and messy and none of it is helped by becoming more polarised, but if you treat people like shit long enough then they're going to see you [TERFs, not you personally] as the enemy and hit out.
weepiper I'm interested in what you think would have happened if people had taken the stuff you describe as a suggestion you might be trans, and what you think that might have meant for you?
I ask because my childhood was very similar in some ways - I was slightly less clear about "wanting to be a boy" if anything - only I am trans. I'm pretty certain I would have found it helpful if people had picked up on that when I was a child and given me the opportunity to untangle it all (eg sessions with a knowledgeable, experienced therapist, maybe experimenting with stuff like presentation and name/pronouns if I wanted), and I think the same would be true even if I'd ended up not transitioning.
(Genuinely interested to hear you expand on that, not trying to be aggressive or confrontational, in case that doesn't come across in text)
I ask because my childhood was very similar in some ways - I was slightly less clear about "wanting to be a boy" if anything - only I am trans. I'm pretty certain I would have found it helpful if people had picked up on that when I was a child and given me the opportunity to untangle it all (eg sessions with a knowledgeable, experienced therapist, maybe experimenting with stuff like presentation and name/pronouns if I wanted), and I think the same would be true even if I'd ended up not transitioning.
(Genuinely interested to hear you expand on that, not trying to be aggressive or confrontational, in case that doesn't come across in text)
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Accepting that things are complicated and messy is a good place to start, imo. For everyone.
The point that no-one is going round telling children who experience some symptoms of gender dysphoria that they are transsexual, the diagnosis model is much more complicated than that.
And it may not have been her intention, but this line of argument - that I experienced gender dysphoria but I'm alright now - is regularly used to undermine transsexual people's lived experiences, as well as being used to undermine treatment for transsexuality and could skirt dangerously close to telling trans people that they just need to pull themselves together and they'll get over it. As I say that may not have been the intention, but that might be one reason why AuntiStella reacted so spikily - this is one of the consequences of prejudice, people experience it so often that they begin to assume the worst.
weepiper
I fix the machines that fight climate change
Except like literally the entire internet. Do you have a teenage daughter who reads a lot of Tumblr? Because I do, and she talks to me about this stuff, and believe you me people on the internet tell her this ALL THE TIME.
I literally never said 'but I'm alright now'. I don't think I am or will ever be 'happy being cis'. But I don't think trans is my answer either. I don't think it's the wrong answer for everyone despite what lots of posters are trying to put in my mouth. But it isn't me. But I don't think that means I should just shut up about how I feel about gender either.
Thimble Queen
Called away to another place
smokedout It was FabricLiveBaby! that said dysphoria goes away tbf.
weepiper
I fix the machines that fight climate change
Here, just one quick example:
Is everyone comfortable with this? Kids are so susceptible and suggestible. It worries me that this kind of thing is being held up as good and desirable and 'hey, here's your easy answer to your discomfort about puberty, kids!'. It's not an easy answer.
Is everyone comfortable with this? Kids are so susceptible and suggestible. It worries me that this kind of thing is being held up as good and desirable and 'hey, here's your easy answer to your discomfort about puberty, kids!'. It's not an easy answer.
Jonti
what the dormouse said
Interesting that the forum thread is for different sexualities, including trans. But fbl's sexual identity is natal female.
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Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
One problem here is that both things can be true at the same time (that people aren't specifically going round telling kids they're transsexual but it's still sort of prevalent as a concept).
It is certainly possible that the much higher profile of trans issues, coupled with social shifts and access to bespoke online environments encouraging specific approaches to life problems, can affect people in ways which are unexpected and potentially lead to kids who are struggling in multiple ways identifying the problem as being trapped in the wrong body when it might not be. And there's always pillocks who take things to extremes (eg. the above pic, or 'thinspiration' in dieting).
However it is also a thing that anti-trans people systematically talk up such factors not in an effort to determine the best way to help kids who are still coming to terms with their place in the world, but to delegitmise and damage the movement for trans rights. The trans community and its allies certainly arenn't conspiring to corrupt kids, they're asking to be treated with respect and care, and focusing on/characterising the totally understandable confusion around growing up and gender/biology as a problem created by that campaign breaking into wider public discussion is missing the point at best, invidious at worst (that's not an accusation but it has been an underlying insinuation in public discussion of the subject).
Connected to that, such a focus can lead to a situation where someone who is trans and identifies early is essentially told, on the grounds of "oh it's just a phase/reaction to the high profile of trans issues," that they're just being silly.
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I think that sign is daft, but also relatively harmless. You can't 'catch' transsexuality, no doctor is going to provide hormone blockers without a solid diagnosis, so it strikes me that the worst possible outcome of any peer coercion is that it might lead someone to experiment with gender. And so what if they do.
My mum used to go on about how terrible the gay switchboard was in case they convinced vulnerable young people they were gay when they weren't . Im sorry but im struggling not to see paralells with that.
You can't get ecstasy from doctors either.
Sketchy Pharmacies Are Selling Hormones to Transgender People
weepiper
I fix the machines that fight climate change
Sorry to anyone who has addressed me directly that I haven't replied to btw, I'm finding it really difficult to keep up with the thread inbetween work/children/shopping/housework today. It's big stuff to think about and I don't necessarily want to dash off a flip answer.
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