Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[littlebabyjesus]

There is none. It explicitly records sex. It doesn't purport to record gender; it couldn't.

The law is confused on this matter. Which was my whole point. It mixes up its use of the two words still as if they were complete synonyms, hence the title of the act allowing you to change the word recorded under 'sex' on your birth certificate is called the Gender Recognition Act.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Yes but do you fear personal /sexual violence and discrimation from your manager or landlord too? Maybe if you did it wouldn't seem so secondry.

Because the harm they can inflict has to be sexually or physically violent to have any impact?

 

[Athos]

The law is confused on this matter. Which was my whole point. It mixes up its use of the two words still as if they were complete synonyms, hence the title of the act allowing you to change the word recorded under 'sex' on your birth certificate is called the Gender Recognition Act.

The law isn't confused. Birth certificates record sex. That this can be changed is merely an expedient legal fiction.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The law isn't confused. Birth certificates record sex. That this can be changed is merely an expedient legal fiction.

Nah that doesn't work. All kinds of things that at root are gender-related issues, not biological sex-related, stem from that word recorded under sex on a birth certificate - fewer than there used to be but still there nonetheless. As Shirley Chisholm put it, "stereotyping of females begins when the doctor says, 'It's a girl'." And that's both a social and legally mediated process.

 

[Athos]

... the legal system once upon a time did not recognise any difference between biological sex and socially constructed gender.

I"m not sure it recognises such a distinction, now. Rather it recognises (to some extent) the distinction between biological sex and a individual's right to define their own gender identity.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Because the harm they can inflict has to be sexually or physically violent to have any impact?

no but I was asking you to consider the double effect.

Yes but do you fear personal /sexual violence and discrimation from your manager or landlord too? Maybe if you did it wouldn't seem so secondry.

I have had times when I feared the leery rent collector turning up when I wasn't fully dressed - was I to be more worried about the inequality of the financial oppression of renting or the fear he might try to rape me? It didn't seem secondry consideration to me.

 

[Athos]

Nah that doesn't work. All kinds of things that at root are gender-related issues, not biological sex-related, stem from that word recorded under sex on a birth certificate - fewer than there used to be but still there nonetheless. As Shirley Chisholm put it, "stereotyping of females begins when the doctor says, 'It's a girl'." And that's both a social and legally mediated process.

Yes, because, historically, gender has been thought of as a set of expectations society places on a person because of their sex. The idea that gender and sex are unrelated is a recent, and far from universally accepted, idea.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Do you even read my posts, Athos?

 

[Athos]

Do you even read my posts, Athos?

Yes, but I don't find them clear. What point were you trying to make? Because I thought it was: 'we're assigned a legal gender at birth'.

Which I don't think is true, because birth certificates explicitly record sex, not gender.

That the biological/legal fact of sex has social consequences IS gender i.e. the expectations society imposes on people because of their sex. As distinct from gender identity.

 

[smokedout]

weepiper is a really thoughtful poster who isn't given to talking out of her arse and she isn't a bigot. I'm sure you know that.

I absolutely rate weepiper as a poster, I'm sorry if I came across as hostile, i've had a shitty day. I was just trying to say that her experience of gender dysphoria is often used as an argument to undermine trans people and that might be why she received a spiky response (a response I thought was a bit over the top myself)

 

[smokedout]

This word gender what does it mean to you (unfair question)? The kids you mention were concerned with their sexuality.

I would say that gender, or gender expression, is a socially formed phenomena which we are all coerced into performing from the day we are born. For some people the gender they were assigned does not feel comfortable, so they might choose to be the opposite gender, or non-binary, agender or whatever. My feeling is that transsexuality, as in someone feeling very uncomfortable with their physical body, often from a very early age, is possibly slightly different and may have some kind of biological root that we don't yet fully understand.

 

[Jonti]

This suggests to me that the experience of gd could possibly depend on one's sex. I feel for the mothers.

 

[Jonti]

.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

no but I was asking you to consider the double effect.

I have had times when I feared the leery rent collector turning up when I wasn't fully dressed - was I to be more worried about the inequality of the financial oppression of renting or the fear he might try to rape me? It didn't seem secondry consideration to me.

surely the two are linked though? If we had class equality you wouldn't have a leery rent collector turning up on your doorstep holding power over you (in this example)?

 

[Jonti]

Yes, because, historically, gender has been thought of as a set of expectations society places on a person because of their sex. The idea that gender and sex are unrelated is a recent, and far from universally accepted, idea.

Just ran into a one time member of the French Foreign Legion on my morning walk. Describes himself as an uneducated working class guy. After a brief conversation using the examples of YW and FLB (and saying this notion of gender is a bit like language, except that everyone has their own gender) he got the idea that his gender would be a squaddie one (with no implication of biological sex), otherwise, he said, "it would be ideology".

The Marxist he was with was dismissive. Not interested. Told me how he'd only lived with women all his life.

They hadn't heard of the events at Speakers Corner, so we'd had a brief chat about no-platforming fascists and the trans chauvinists no-platforming natal women before hand.

 

[iona]

Here, just one quick example:

View attachment 116083

Is everyone comfortable with this? Kids are so susceptible and suggestible. It worries me that this kind of thing is being held up as good and desirable and 'hey, here's your easy answer to your discomfort about puberty, kids!'. It's not an easy answer.

My first reaction to that is that it's probably not meant all that seriously, and it's definitely not representative of the "trans community" (whatever the fuck that is, just couldn't think of a better way to put it while I was typing - sorry) that I'm familiar with.

Not saying it doesn't happen, but stuff like that is - ime - generally confined to a small minority of people in places like Tumblr which, again, isn't representative. The most definite advice I see given online to someone questioning their gender is along the lines of "Sounds like you could possibly be trans but we really can't tell you either way, it's something you have to work out for yourself. An experienced therapist can really help with that, you should look into seeing someone (possibly with suggestions of how to find one if they've said what country or state they're posting from)."

Obviously that doesn't really help if you have a child who spends a lot of time posting on Tumblr though. I don't know what the answer is there, but I don't think giving kids space to explore their gender or the current availability of hormone blockers is the problem. No one who's actually involved in the care and treatment of trans children (or trans adults, for that matter) is offering medical transition as "an easy answer."

 

[Jonti]

Just a comment that I thoroughly enjoyed The Emperor's Embrace by Jeffrey Mason. It's about fatherhood in evolution, (the Emperor penguin is one of the animals discussed) but he's also the author of Against Therapy which talks about the power relationship that exists between patient and therapist.

I've made extensive use of leaderless self-help groups and they seem to me to be a better alternative. I'm thinking of the mothers of boys who have gd, who would seem to face very difficult problems, if their sons are accepting a toxic ideological identity.

 

[Athos]

No one who's actually involved in the care and treatment of trans children (or trans adults, for that matter) is offering medical transition as "an easy answer."

Maybe not, but one (who continues to receive support from many in the trans community) was offering transition via cross-sex hormones to children as young as 12 (in breach of NHS guidelines which say 16), until she was suspended by the GMC. That's an age when kids are vulnerable and probably not equipped to make such momentous decisions. So seems an odd choice to favour ahead of reversible puberty blockers. You have to wonder if the support for it isn't partly ideological, rather than clinical. Because the sooner people transition, the harder it is for others to deny their gender based upon the absence of a common history of socialisation.

 

[trashpony]

It's possible to experience gender dysphoria as a teenager/young person and *not* ultimately identify as trans What’s Missing From the Conversation About Transgender Kids

And I don't think (or I hope) that no one thinks you're anything less than a really supportive parent going through a really difficult time with your beloved child Clair De Lune and trying to support him the best they can.

Natal women are not allowed to take HRT for more than five years because of an increased risk of strokes and heart disease. What's the impact on transwomen's health of taking it for years and years? What's the impact of puberty blockers? And if changing birth records means that the NHS is unable to tell who is trans and who is natal, how can they ensure they're picking up health risks that impact the trans community?

 

[friendofdorothy]

surely the two are linked though? If we had class equality you wouldn't have a leery rent collector turning up on your doorstep holding power over you (in this example)?

Yes obviously linked, but in tackling the leery rent collector what should I do first:
a) overthrow the capitalist system
b) fight the threat of male violence
c) move home
That is quite a 'to do' list and obviously I did (c), then I tried to do what little I could to do (b).

Haven't had much energy left over to try (a) yet.

Edited to add - just realised what thread I'm on. Didn't mean to derail. Apologies.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Yes obviously linked, but in tackling the leery rent collector what should I do first:
a) overthrow the capitalist system
b) fight the threat of male violence
c) move home
That is quite a 'to do' list and obviously I did (c), then I tried to do what little I could to do (b).

Haven't had much energy left over to try (a) yet.

Fighting capitalism isn't the only outcome of having a class analysis. In your example it could lead to setting up a tenants' union to expose and oppose dodgy landlords. The best way would involve as much of the community getting on board as possible who share those interests. Seeing it as a 'women only' problem already wipes out a good section of that support.

 

[friendofdorothy]

to get it back on track:

I totally get that neoliberalism has co-opted identity politics, and that politics based on identity alone is not ultimately useful in transforming society, but I don't think that it therefore follows that all fights for minority rights are 'playing along with the status quo'. You can be passionate about gay rights, or trans rights or whatever and campaign on those issues and also believe in fighting together as a class, surely?

Of course. But I place them as secondary to class politics (which argues for equality to all) rather than being pleased that I now have a black manager and landlord.

If you are trans then trans issues may dominate your everyday life.

You may have the luxury of placing such issues secondary to your class politics because you don't have to fear sexual/other violence and discrimination on a daily basis. That was the point I was making.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

to get it back on track:


If you are trans then trans issues may dominate your everyday life.

You may have the luxury of placing such issues secondary to your class politics because you don't have to fear sexual/other violence and discrimination on a daily basis. That was the point I was making.

Those things don't affect working class people?
You think I'm coming from an individualist perspective here when I'm actually arguing the opposite.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Yes obviously linked, but in tackling the leery rent collector what should I do first:
a) overthrow the capitalist system
b) fight the threat of male violence
c) move home
That is quite a 'to do' list and obviously I did (c), then I tried to do what little I could to do (b).

Haven't had much energy left over to try (a) yet.

Edited to add - just realised what thread I'm on. Didn't mean to derail. Apologies.

Great response and questions though...i'd be tempted to carry that over IIWY.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Fighting capitalism isn't the only outcome of having a class analysis. In your example it could lead to setting up a tenants' union to expose and oppose dodgy landlords. The best way would involve as much of the community getting on board as possible who share those interests. Seeing it as a 'women only' problem already wipes out a good section of that support.

I feel you haven't really listened to what I said at all.

Have you considered that 'getting as much of the community on board as possible' is difficult, when a person is part of a minory that might not be accepted or welcomed - even shunned by that 'community'?

As a young lesbian woman, at the time of the example I gave (which was a long time ago,1982), yes I saw things from my perspective and yes I did want to live in a 'women only' home - it seemed the safest and most personally comfortable option. I knew so many young women who feared and had experienced sexual/violent threats in their own homes, in their own communities. The 'community' in general was not a place we could turn to for support. Lesbian women then became my community.

Those things don't affect working class people?
You think I'm coming from an individualist perspective here when I'm actually arguing the opposite.

I'm not sure where you are coming from, apart from telling me I'm wrong that sexual/gender issues are only secondary to class struggles - or have I got that wrong. What are you arguing? how does this relate to trans issues? How does it help?

 

[friendofdorothy]

Great response and questions though...i'd be tempted to carry that over IIWY.

thanks.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's possible to experience gender dysphoria as a teenager/young person and *not* ultimately identify as trans What’s Missing From the Conversation About Transgender Kids

That's a really good article. Ta. One of the best things I've seen written on this subject.

This stuff is challenging. I think many on here would absolutely agree with the part that says that "gender is partly a matter of behavior and identity being learned and reinforced over time". In fact it seems a bit of an understatement - 'mostly' might be more apt; some would say 'overwhelmingly'. And so the conclusion that a 'gender-affirming' approach is likely to reduce desistance percentages seems reasonable, although it might be wrong. Would that be a bad thing in itself? I don't know. "In the long run, we’ll be better at this stuff", she says. Hope so.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I feel you haven't really listened to what I said at all.

Have you considered that 'getting as much of the community on board as possible' is difficult, when a person is part of a minory that might not be accepted or welcomed - even shunned by that 'community'?

As a young lesbian woman, at the time of the example I gave (which was a long time ago,1982), yes I saw things from my perspective and yes I did want to live in a 'women only' home - it seemed the safest and most personally comfortable option. I knew so many young women who feared and had experienced sexual/violent threats in their own homes, in their own communities. The 'community' in general was not a place we could turn to for support. Lesbian women then became my community.


I'm not sure where you are coming from, apart from telling me I'm wrong that sexual/gender issues are only secondary to class struggles - or have I got that wrong. What are you arguing? how does this relate to trans issues? How does it help?

Because class affects everyone including women and trans. Unless of course you happen to be part of the oppressive class but tick an LGBT box, then I can see why a class perspective wouldn't matter so much.

 

[iona]

Maybe not, but one (who continues to receive support from many in the trans community) was offering transition via cross-sex hormones to children as young as 12 (in breach of NHS guidelines which say 16), until she was suspended by the GMC. That's an age when kids are vulnerable and probably not equipped to make such momentous decisions. So seems an odd choice to favour ahead of reversible puberty blockers. You have to wonder if the support for it isn't partly ideological, rather than clinical. Because the sooner people transition, the harder it is for others to deny their gender based upon the absence of a common history of socialisation.

I assume you mean Dr Webberley? As I understand it she only ever prescribed hormones to a handful of children including one 12 year old, who iirc was already on blockers. Can't comment on that case specifically without knowing all the facts.

Wrt trans kids in general though, deciding when to start hormones on a case-by-case basis would be make far more sense, surely. Being kept on blockers rather than allowed to go through puberty along with their peers can also be devastating - and it happens far more often. Wanting to help alleviate that pain isn't just some ideological thing about making it harder "for others to deny their gender based upon the absence of a common history of socialisation".

And anyway, there's a long and involved process to even get to the point where blockers, never mind hormones, are an option. No one is making kids be trans, and even kids who say they're trans or are questioning have to go through loads of appointments and assessments and therapy before anything else happens.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Because class affects everyone including women and trans. Unless of course you happen to be part of the oppressive class but tick an LGBT box, then I can see why a class perspective wouldn't matter so much.

aaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh don't know why I bother.

I know many queer people who have 'oppressed' by their their own families, of every class.